View Full Version : LQ4 Build question WTF
transamguy24
05-19-2012, 01:56 AM
I'm trying to figure out what my hp should be with my current setup. I've got a 2002 ws6 with the t56 and stock gears. the engine is a 1999 lq4 with dish pistons, 10k on the rebuild. 243s non-ported and milled 50k (stock thickness MLS gaskets), haven't done a compression test yet. LS6 intake with ported throttle body and smooth bellows connector. The camshaft is 242/248 duration 610/615 lift 114+2 LSA. New racetronix fuel pump and 50lb injectors. 1 and 7/8'' long tubes to 3'' y-pipe to Magnaflow muffler to dual 2 and 1/2'' outlets. no cats. Its been speed-density street tuned. I put it on the dyno the other day and it made 384 rwhp and 368 rwtq. WTF!?! :miss: Just wanted to see if anyone out there may be able to shed some light on this. All comments appreciated. Thanks.
oldskoolstang
05-19-2012, 02:01 AM
Your tune sucks.
WTFWSAT
05-19-2012, 04:36 AM
What kind of dyno was it on? Did someone local tune it? Do you know what your compression ratio is?
lets see. 1. heads too small for cam. either get them ported or go ls3 heads. 2nd get a good tune. 3. compression?
bambooi
05-19-2012, 06:52 AM
480rwhp on a dyno jet
1998ta__1991rs
05-19-2012, 07:34 AM
It sounds about dead on to me. The cam is way too big for the heads and intake. The 1 7/8" headers are peobably hurting it with those heads too. You have considerably less compression than a stock ls1. The theory of throwing the biggest parts you can on something doesn't always work out.
98Camarod
05-19-2012, 08:22 AM
fwiw, I made 390rwhp with a 80k mile 98 ls1 stock bottom end, 241 heads, comp 230/230 xer cam, pacesetters, and ls6 intake.
FRDnemesis
05-19-2012, 08:30 AM
It sounds about dead on to me. The cam is way too big for the heads and intake. The 1 7/8" headers are peobably hurting it with those heads too. You have considerably less compression than a stock ls1. The theory of throwing the biggest parts you can on something doesn't always work out.
Yep! Dish pistons in a N/A MOTOR, not going to get a good result. On top of that, if your cam does not allow the proper valve event timing for your head/piston combo, that will magnify the problem. You really need to get your CR figured out.
oldskoolstang
05-19-2012, 09:39 AM
I've spoke with him before and he said he's only getting 140-160 miles out of a full tank with the car. I know he has some parts that aren't working harmoniously together, but I really think the tune sucks. He also does not have a wideband in the car, so he does not know his a/f. Of course there is more to just a/f with a tune (before all the comments...) Every time I've ran on a dyno they used their A/F gauge on my car.
What was the A/F on the dyno runs?
FRDnemesis
05-19-2012, 09:59 AM
I've spoke with him before and he said he's only getting 140-160 miles out of a full tank with the car.
He probably isn't burning all of the fuel on combustion if the the CR is too low, but that is purely speculation on my part.
00blackws6mn6
05-19-2012, 11:03 AM
From speaking to him, A/F gauge on the car. Car goes lean as he gets in the throttle. Mind you its his only means of transportation.
TurboWS6
05-19-2012, 11:19 AM
According to http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp
Your Comp ratio is 9.69:1
243 cylinder head volume 64cc
bore 4"
Stroke 3.622
piston volume 10cc
gasket thickness .052
gasket bore diameter 4.040
deck clearance -005 (.005 above the deck)
rod length 6.098
As stated above your cam is too big, but the biggest factor hurting your car is the comp ratio. You can get another tune but I would imagine that would probably on get you maybe another 10rwhp. There are only a few things you can do to fix it.
Put a smaller cam in, then. put a blower on it. Should wake right up. Swap the pistons out, if you are dead set on staying N/A.
I say live with it, save up then add some form of Forced induction to it.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-19-2012, 11:25 AM
The theory of throwing the biggest parts you can on something doesn't always work out.
Its not a theroy, its a way of life.:finger:
schardbody
05-19-2012, 11:33 AM
poor combination of parts, like everyone else said.
would make a good boost motor though.
oldskoolstang
05-19-2012, 11:59 AM
It looks and sounds good, he seems like a nice guy, I bought his stock LS1 crank a while back. I wish him the best of luck with it, but it was his first build ever.....and a few mistakes were made for a good N/A motor....
minytrker
05-19-2012, 12:35 PM
I doubt it's the tune. It was tuned with a wideband from what I heard. On a Dyno it's just timing and fuel, two tables, pretty hard to mess that up. I agree with everyone else mixed matched parts. I have 430 can only and also made 430 with cam and shitty heads.
transamguy24
05-20-2012, 12:58 AM
Sorry its taken me so long to respond guys. I'm working 12hr shifts this weekend and haven't had time. I thought my compression would be just a hair past 10 to 1 because I milled the heads 50k to make up for the dish pistons although I used stock thickness mls head gaskets. Just haven't gotten around to doing a compression test yet. The reason I went with that cam is because I got a good deal on it $150. Unfortunately I couldn't afford to have the heads ported and polished. I was considering just saving up for that and then using thinner head gaskets. I'm still unsure if the LS6 intake will be enough for that cam though.The engine should be able to handle high RPMs because when I built it I used ARPs for the piston rods. Also I forgot to mention that it made those hp and tq #s @ only 6200 RPMs. The guy who tuned it set the rev limiter to low imopo. As I said before it does have ARP rod bolts and the pushrods are perfect. One of the things that I thought may be hurt it is the harmonic ballancer. I had to use the stock lq4 one because the ls1 ballancer wouldn't fit on the lq4 crank.And at the time I didn't know that I could have just used the ls1 crank. So the lq4 ballancer is bigger and heavier than the ls1 ballancer. So I thought that could be one of my problems.
transamguy24
05-20-2012, 01:04 AM
BTW guys thanks for your input. It's always good to get personal input from more experienced mechanics. I need all the advice I can get.
transamguy24
05-20-2012, 01:07 AM
480rwhp on a dyno jet
I don't understand man what are trying to say?:?
TurboWS6
05-20-2012, 01:41 AM
I don't understand man what are trying to say?:?
Dynojets tend to put out higher HP numbers than others.
TurboWS6
05-20-2012, 01:50 AM
Yah sorry about the comp ratio thing IMO that big of a cam needs at least 10.5:1 minimum. Should be more like 11:1 unless you want to add some sort of power adder to it. Not sure who made that grind but you should be able to look it up if you know the manufacture and it should say what comp ratio is optimum for that cam.
You might be right about the 6200RPM being to low. A cam with that high of duration should peak around 7Kish. But then again it might have started falling off on the dyno because the intake/ heads aren't designed to flow the numbers required and that high of rpm.
Did you install ARP main studs to when you built it?
ShawnBoyMoody
05-20-2012, 11:00 AM
Lol at the real tags....
1998ta__1991rs
05-20-2012, 11:18 AM
I wouldn't go milling your heads much more. You may run into an intake issue
transamguy24
05-21-2012, 01:17 AM
oh okay. I actually don't even know what type of dyno it was. i gotta check that out. so does anyone have any input as to wether or not the harmonic ballancer would cause any hp losses?
transamguy24
05-21-2012, 01:31 AM
Thanks for that man! I'm def gunna give comp cams a call soon to figure out what cr I need I hadn't even thought of that. If I remember correctly I think the Rpm range for that cam is something like 2400 to 7600. So I know the cam itself is capable but you guys are right, I think I will have to just save up to p&p the heads. The only ARP studs I used were on the piston rods. I felt like having 6 bolt mains was good enough but please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a lot of learning to do still.
transamguy24
05-21-2012, 01:40 AM
also I forgot to mention that the cam was still making hp when the rev limiter kicked in. Although you are right I'm actually wondering how far it could go with the ls6 intake.
schardbody
05-21-2012, 06:48 AM
cncport.com is working on their ls1 cnc program as we speak, they told me they are 4-6 weeks out but the estimated price I was given will be well worth the wait.
bwelch
05-21-2012, 10:58 AM
cncport.com is working on their ls1 cnc program as we speak, they told me they are 4-6 weeks out but the estimated price I was given will be well worth the wait.
What was the price just for them to run a cnc program on your heads? They told me $1000. I know where to get cnc'd stock castings with manley valves and springs for $750 per head and thats with bigger valves cut in.
TurboWS6
05-21-2012, 11:31 AM
Thanks for that man! I'm def gunna give comp cams a call soon to figure out what cr I need I hadn't even thought of that. If I remember correctly I think the Rpm range for that cam is something like 2400 to 7600. So I know the cam itself is capable but you guys are right, I think I will have to just save up to p&p the heads. The only ARP studs I used were on the piston rods. I felt like having 6 bolt mains was good enough but please correct me if I'm wrong. I have a lot of learning to do still.
I think ARP studs are cheap less than 100 dollars, I would definetly add them if you plan onturning that motor to 7600 rpm. It's cheap insurance. As far as the balancer goes there is a advantage to running a aftermarket one if its underdriven but that's because it will cut down on parasetic losses, should net like 3-5 rwhp. The other reason to run one is to eliminate harmonic vibrations at high rpm's that could cause the crank to break. Also a good idea with the RPM you want to turn.
minytrker
05-21-2012, 01:23 PM
If I remember correctly I think the Rpm range for that cam is something like 2400 to 7600.
I highly doubt its 7600rpm probably 6600rpm unless you have a solid roller. I have one of the most aggressive LS cams you can get and it peaks at 7200rpm. 2400-7600rpm is a huge split. Mines 4000-7200rpm
I think ARP studs are cheap less than 100 dollars, I would definetly add them if you plan onturning that motor to 7600 rpm. It's cheap insurance. As far as the balancer goes there is a advantage to running a aftermarket one if its underdriven but that's because it will cut down on parasetic losses, should net like 3-5 rwhp. The other reason to run one is to eliminate harmonic vibrations at high rpm's that could cause the crank to break. Also a good idea with the RPM you want to turn.
go ahead and do that 7600. then you can start all over again , and this time do it right.
schardbody
05-21-2012, 04:37 PM
What was the price just for them to run a cnc program on your heads? They told me $1000. I know where to get cnc'd stock castings with manley valves and springs for $750 per head and thats with bigger valves cut in.
It was less than a grand. Email him and ask but you have to mention that you're local. I will look at the email again tonight but I'm sure it was $800 for full cnc...
transamguy24
05-21-2012, 05:10 PM
Ok so I called comp cams and they said its a custom grind cam meant for 2400 to 7400 rpm I forgot to ask about the cr though
schardbody
05-21-2012, 05:38 PM
did you get any specs on it?
minytrker
05-21-2012, 05:51 PM
Ok so I called comp cams and they said its a custom grind cam meant for 2400 to 7400 rpm I forgot to ask about the cr though
I have never seen any cam make any kind of power at 2400rpm that can be spun up to 7400rpm, especially in a small motor. My big stroker motor doesnt make any power at 2400rpm. Post up the specs on the cam.
transamguy24
05-21-2012, 06:18 PM
This is the only info I have on it
242/248 duration 610/615 lift 114+2 lsa
Grind # is 3731/3734 hr114+2*
Part # is h8251-06*
It's a comp cams custom grind and the guy I spoke to said that he didn't have much info on it because it's a custom grind. I can't find any other info on it
schardbody
05-21-2012, 09:24 PM
that cam probably would make power to 7000 rpm but definately aint doing anything at 2400.
probably has a usable powerband of 4000-7000ish depending on the Heads/intake/exhaust
transamguy24
05-21-2012, 09:44 PM
Doesn't feel like it's making much power until about 3000 3500 rpm's but at the same time that came is made to go to 7400 RPM so I don't think it will stop making power at 7000 unless there's a rev limiter set
transamguy24
05-21-2012, 09:45 PM
But that also depends on whether or not the LS6 intake will allow it to go that far
minytrker
05-21-2012, 11:02 PM
That cam is WAY to big for that motor. It will NEVER make power to 7400rpm. Your combo is mix-matched very badly, its never going to produce alot of hp unless you change parts. Just putting a big ass cam in a car isnt going to give the best results. You can make 400hp cam only with alot of cams out there and 430-450 with cam and 243's. Thats all on stock cu LS1's not even with a 6.0.
I doubt your rev limter is really 6200 rpm, most stock tach's are off on f body's and its hard to tell on a dyno sheet alot of times.
oldskoolstang
05-21-2012, 11:25 PM
^^^^ What he said
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 12:00 AM
That cam is WAY to big for that motor. It will NEVER make power to 7400rpm. Your combo is mix-matched very badly, its never going to produce alot of hp unless you change parts.
I never said my combination would make 7400 rpm's I said that the cam is capable of 7400 rpm's learn how to read. By the way I worked pretty damn hard at putting my ''horribe combination'' together. The only thing that is oddball is the cam and the tune. But the final product has yet to be revealed and when it is I will post the results and decide what to do from there. In the mean time I'm looking for helpful advice. Not dickheaded criticism. :Finger2:
ShawnBoyMoody
05-22-2012, 12:06 AM
I dont think he was being a dickhead at at all......
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 12:36 AM
Feels to me like all the dude has done so far is argue about the cams capability and talked shit about my setup. Call it what you want. To me he's being a dick.
TurboWS6
05-22-2012, 12:54 AM
LS6 intakes tend to peak around 6400-6500 RPM N/A so you need a cam that peaks around there. Your lift is way to high without heads that are ported to take advantage of that lift.
To be honest man, get rid of that cam and run something with the duration in the lower 230's, for a street/strip car there is really no good reason to turn it that hard, it will just kill it faster. I only turn mine to 6800 at least that is where the limiter is set usually I shift around 6500.
With the unported 243 heads there is very little benefit in running a cam with more than .550 lift the difference in flow is 1 cfm on the intake @ .600 on the flow bench in stock form. The extra lift will just add more stress to the valvetrain and will wear out your guides faster. Check out the flow bench numbers below.
http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj585/preston99ws6/243head.jpg
minytrker
05-22-2012, 01:26 AM
Feels to me like all the dude has done so far is argue about the cams capability and talked shit about my setup. Call it what you want. To me he's being a dick.
Its call telling you the truth, your in denial about your cam being wrong. I was trying to explain that your cam can't do what your posting but you dont want to hear it. I know who tuned your car and its highly unlikely its the tune. Even most shitty tuners can even make good horsepower. I have made in the 430-440 range on many cars with stock 243's all with off the shelf cam's. The wrong cam can have you down 50-75hp or even more if the cam, heads, compression ratio, intake, and exhaust are all fighting each other. I dont spec combo's but I do tune alot of cars and get to see what works and what doesnt without having to buy a single part. I see bad combo's all the time, your not the only one, change the cam and move on.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 01:31 AM
Thank you TurboWS6 for all the USEFUL info. I hate it when ppl just wanna argue. To be honest, I wasn't planning on going with a cam this big. I'm just always broke and it was the best deal at the time. Before I built this motor, My old setup was an ls1 with 241s with the same headers and a POS makeshift y pipe. Also I had the very same ls6 intake and ported throttle body. That setup made power all the way to 7000 rpm and made 381 rwhp 368 rwtq. I'm not sure what cam it was. All I know is after the tune, It was determined that it was probably around 230 duration 550 lift 114+2 lsa. Since then I've gained 18 cubic inches, better flowing heads, bigger cam, bigger injectors. and a new/bigger y-pipe. I just feel like even though the came can't reach its max, the entire setup should make more than a 4hp difference from the old one. Also I'm not planning on turning more than 7000 rpms. I'm just pointing out the fact that It could make more power if allowed to climb above 6200 rpms.
TurboWS6
05-22-2012, 01:44 AM
To be honest its the combination of lowish compression with the cam that is killing your hp. Like I said before that compression ration is begging for some form of power adder, IMO pick up another used cam in the .550-.575 area around 230 duration, chose one with a tight overlap it will prevent your motor from leaking down compression, and throw a 150 shot at it, then sell the old cam for 150-200. So really you are only out like 400 bucks plus the cost of gaskets if you pick up a used nitrous kit off of LS1tech. I was just looking at the for sale thread and there are several available under 450 there's one now for about 350 once you pay for shipping. You will have to put up the money for the cam up front but you will get it back. With h beams and forged pistons that LQ4 will take nitrous no problem.
minytrker
05-22-2012, 01:57 AM
Im not arguing with you, just giving you some advice. I could care less what your car makes. Your rev limiter is actually at 6700 is what I was told, how are you checking it? Your old combo had more compression than your current one, probably why it made better power. Injectors wont make anymore hp unless your maxing out your old ones which at your hp they werent. If you dont want to listen you should post on ls1tech there are many more like your kind over there, you'll fit right in. :hysterical:
TurboWS6
05-22-2012, 02:11 AM
To be honest its the combination of lowish compression with the cam that is killing your hp. Like I said before that compression ration is begging for some form of power adder, IMO pick up another used cam in the .550-.575 area around 230 duration, chose one with a tight overlap it will prevent your motor from leaking down compression, and throw a 150 shot at it, then sell the old cam for 150-200. So really you are only out like 400 bucks plus the cost of gaskets if you pick up a used nitrous kit off of LS1tech. I was just looking at the for sale thread and there are several available under 450 there's one now for about 350 once you pay for shipping. You will have to put up the money for the cam up front but you will get it back. With h beams and forged pistons that LQ4 will take nitrous no problem.
By tight I mean 108-112max.
TurboWS6
05-22-2012, 02:14 AM
Im not arguing with you, just giving you some advice. I could care less what your car makes. Your rev limiter is actually at 6700 is what I was told, how are you checking it? Your old combo had more compression than your current one, probably why it made better power. Injectors wont make anymore hp unless your maxing out your old ones which at your hp they werent. If you dont want to listen you should post on ls1tech there are many more like your kind over there, you'll fit right in. :hysterical:
I can second the tach being off or at least slow, when me and JP were tuning at dorchester dragway I spun the motor to what the tach said was 6700 RPM in second gear ended up being 7417 according to the data log.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 02:27 AM
Im not arguing with you, just giving you some advice. I could care less what your car makes. Your rev limiter is actually at 6700 is what I was told, how are you checking it? Your old combo had more compression than your current one, probably why it made better power. Injectors wont make anymore hp unless your maxing out your old ones which at your hp they werent. If you dont want to listen you should post on ls1tech there are many more like your kind over there, you'll fit right in. :hysterical:
Checking it on the dyno. Also go talk to your buddy about why i needed bigger injectors. Hes the one that told me that I needed them. Also this is exactly what I was talking about. If this is your way of giving advice then I really don't care to here what you have to say. So either stop being a dick or just don't post!
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 02:35 AM
By the way I'm not in denial about the cam I know it's a little bit too big with nonported heads but at the same time I appreciate advice but I do not appreciate criticism
minytrker
05-22-2012, 03:11 AM
Checking it on the dyno. Also go talk to your buddy about why i needed bigger injectors. Hes the one that told me that I needed them. Also this is exactly what I was talking about. If this is your way of giving advice then I really don't care to here what you have to say. So either stop being a dick or just don't post!
I have seen the dyno sheet not match my laptop or the actual rpm on the dyno. Its really hard to look at a dyno sheet and know what the rev limiter is unless you log it or watch the dyno pc while they are on the rev limiter.
If your setup was correct you would need injectors, stock are good till right at 400 or little over if your lucky. With the correct setup you should be over 400. Most cam only 6.0's make 400+ so I would have recommended injectors also.
By the way I'm not in denial about the cam I know it's a little bit too big with nonported heads but at the same time I appreciate advice but I do not appreciate criticism
I dont know what to tell you but maybe get some thicker skin. Pretty much everyone one here has said your cam/combo isnt correct. It seems you picked out all the parts yourself and dont want to accept that its your fault the combo isnt correct. Its really not a big deal, fix the combo and move on. Even with ported heads it still would not make good power unless you get the compression up and a bigger intake. The cam is the problem not the heads.
1iron
05-22-2012, 07:08 AM
Hydraulic cam designed for 7400 rpm? That is hard to believe. What lifter can handle that?
98nbmz
05-22-2012, 11:10 AM
My car with a similar cam made much more power with stock 98 heads and lq4.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 11:47 AM
My car with a similar cam made much more power with stock 98 heads and lq4.
What was your set up and what was the outcome?
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 12:58 PM
I have seen the dyno sheet not match my laptop or the actual rpm on the dyno. Its really hard to look at a dyno sheet and know what the rev limiter is unless you log it or watch the dyno pc while they are on the rev limiter.
If your setup was correct you would need injectors, stock are good till right at 400 or little over if your lucky. With the correct setup you should be over 400. Most cam only 6.0's make 400+ so I would have recommended injectors also.
I dont know what to tell you but maybe get some thicker skin. Pretty much everyone one here has said your cam/combo isnt correct. It seems you picked out all the parts yourself and dont want to accept that its your fault the combo isnt correct. Its really not a big deal, fix the combo and move on. Even with ported heads it still would not make good power unless you get the compression up and a bigger intake. The cam is the problem not the heads.
I'm a little broke at the time but at some point I will be most likely changing the cam out. I'm just kind of stuck with it for right now. What I'm trying to figure out is if the dyno numbers I got recently are accurate given to set up I have or if those numbers should be a little higher. I've seen a lot of similar set ups online with cams that are pretty much the same as mine and some even bigger that got better results than this so I'm trying to figure out what the underlined difference is. From what every one is saying, it's looking like compression. I'm Gunna try to do compression test some time this week. I know I won't get 450 at the wheels but I think it should at least cross the 400 mark if my compression is right.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 01:00 PM
Does anyone know what max numbers an ls6 intake can support?
schardbody
05-22-2012, 01:07 PM
if i were you i'd run thinner head gaskets and swap the cam out for a torquer v3. get the compression up over 10.0 and you should easily see 420 to the wheels even with stock ports and an ls6 intake.
only thing i dont know is if you have enough PTV clearance with all that milling to run thinner gaskets and any other cam so you should clay it for sure.
minytrker
05-22-2012, 01:36 PM
I'm a little broke at the time but at some point I will be most likely changing the cam out. I'm just kind of stuck with it for right now. What I'm trying to figure out is if the dyno numbers I got recently are accurate given to set up I have or if those numbers should be a little higher. I've seen a lot of similar set ups online with cams that are pretty much the same as mine and some even bigger that got better results than this so I'm trying to figure out what the underlined difference is. From what every one is saying, it's looking like compression. I'm Gunna try to do compression test some time this week. I know I won't get 450 at the wheels but I think it should at least cross the 400 mark if my compression is right.
You cant start comparing "similar" setups online. Unless you can find someone with the same custom grind cam then there is no way to compare there results with yours. I have way more hp that your setup cam only, all big cams are not bad. Its just the combination or your cam, heads, compression not working together is why your not getting the results your looking for. You can pretty much change either, cam, heads, or compression and make 400+ hp. Like someone already said a torquer V3 would make good power( made 440 with it and stock 243s). I used that cam in 50+ cars and love that cams power and torque curve. You could also put on 5.3 truck heads to bump up the compression but Im not a fan of that route since IMO the 243 are better. You have several options out there but unfortunately none are exactly cheap or quick fixes.
Does anyone know what max numbers an ls6 intake can support?
There really isnt a max number, to many variables. I have personally tuned alot of cars that made 440-450rwhp na with ls6 intakes. I also made 700+ with power adders with ls6 intakes. I dont think the intake is holding you back any.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 01:53 PM
I did ptv clearance check with the old thinner gaskets and there is still plenty of room. The only thing I'm really concerned about is still being able to get the intake bolts to line up if I were going to mil anymore which I don't plane to. Like you said I will prob just get the thinner head gaskets an hopefully everything will still line up.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 02:02 PM
Yea I didn't think the intake would be an issue but this is my first build. One other thing I was wondering is the lq4 crank is 1 lb heavier than the ls1 crank. Along with the extra weight of the harmonic balancer, would this hurt power by a noticeable amount?
schardbody
05-22-2012, 03:02 PM
why do you keep bringing up the balancer? there is NO way you are running a truck balancer with Fbody accessories, its not possible unless you spaced EVERYTHING.
98nbmz
05-22-2012, 03:50 PM
My car with a similar cam made much more power with stock 98 heads and lq4.
A thrown together piece of junk from parts of random stock motors with a large cam. If I'm not mistaken when Jamie tuned my car it's first pull was around your numbers. Added a few degrees of timing and went up to over 400
00blackws6mn6
05-22-2012, 03:54 PM
If you need any help let me know I'll give you a hand.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 03:56 PM
why do you keep bringing up the balancer? there is NO way you are running a truck balancer with Fbody accessories, its not possible unless you spaced EVERYTHING.
Def useing the truck balancer and def didn't space anything
torqueslut
05-22-2012, 04:00 PM
my car is an ls1 243 ls6 intake, almost same size cam and makes around 430-440 with my tune in my buddies car stock lq4 with stock 317 and ls2 intake and similar cam, his only made 30 hp less and most of that is the shitty ls2 intake. both of these have powerglides, If you have acess to hp tuners send me the tune and ill look it over.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-22-2012, 04:19 PM
Def useing the truck balancer and def didn't space anything
Nosir.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 04:56 PM
I can show you I drive it every day
LXtasy
05-22-2012, 05:51 PM
I can show you I drive it every day
Please do that. Car accesories including water pump?
schardbody
05-22-2012, 06:02 PM
This is such a waste of time.... its obviously a mismatch of parts, low compression..... not the heavier crank or incorrect balanced or the tune that's causing low power.
1998ta__1991rs
05-22-2012, 06:41 PM
What was your set up and what was the outcome?
he had a lq4 with a trex cam and stock untouched 97-98 heads (the shitty perimeter bolt ones) and i think a ls6 intake, car made almost 430 iirc
1998ta__1991rs
05-22-2012, 06:42 PM
Does anyone know what max numbers an ls6 intake can support?
the ohio boys made close to 2000 hp with a ls6 intake, and a turbo
1998ta__1991rs
05-22-2012, 06:45 PM
also, you cant run a truck balancer with fbody accessories, not saying you have an fbody balancer, but you do not have a truck one
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 06:50 PM
also, you cant run a truck balancer with fbody accessories, not saying you have an fbody balancer, but you do not have a truck one
Yes dude I'm the one who installed it it is the one that came with the lq4 which is the truck one
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 06:51 PM
This is such a waste of time.... its obviously a mismatch of parts, low compression..... not the heavier crank or incorrect balanced or the tune that's causing low power.
I'm merely just trying to figure out whether or not the balancer and crank are contributing to the problem
Matts94Z28
05-22-2012, 06:55 PM
Go grab a picture of the balancer.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 07:14 PM
I don't have a picture of it right now but I can take a picture of it but why do you need a picture anyways why would I lie about that it's not something that I'm proud of
As a matter of fact if anybody has a stock LS1 harmonica balancer since I sold mine I would like to buy off of you or trade you out of it to have it machined to fit my crank
LXtasy
05-22-2012, 07:52 PM
Fbody or truck water pump? Truck accessory brackets?
bwelch
05-22-2012, 08:05 PM
Just put a ton of nitrous on it and call it a day. 6.30s all day
white99ta
05-22-2012, 08:11 PM
Id go back to your old cam if you have it get rid of the cam you have now and try to get something thatll work with your setup. I got a comp cams custom grind and the drivablity is awesome and its got a decent amount of power. Havent got it dynoed yet though. The cam specs are adv dur: 285/ 289 dur @ .050 232/236 112lsa valve lift .579/.579.I dont know how much thatll help but i do have stock heads and injectors. If you need any help ill be up in West Ashely this weekend and i got a 96 so ill have a little more time. You got my number just text me and let me know. I might be at sss sat too but havent been going cause its the same shit every weekend and the same punkass kids doing stupid shit with their 100rwhp coolness.
bwelch
05-22-2012, 08:14 PM
Id go back to your old cam if you have it get rid of the cam you have now and try to get something thatll work with your setup. I got a comp cams custom grind and the drivablity is awesome and its got a decent amount of power. Havent got it dynoed yet though. The cam specs are adv dur: 285/ 289 dur @ .050 232/236 112lsa valve lift .579/.579.I dont know how much thatll help but i do have stock heads and injectors. If you need any help ill be up in West Ashely this weekend and i got a 96 so ill have a little more time. You got my number just text me and let me know. I might be at sss sat too but havent been going cause its the same shit every weekend and the same punkass kids doing stupid shit with their 100Fwhp coolness.
fixed...
TurboWS6
05-22-2012, 08:21 PM
I'm merely just trying to figure out whether or not the balancer and crank are contributing to the problem
The balancer / crank are not the problem.
The problem you have is the fact that your cam has a lot of duration which leaks off compression, and a lot of overlap which is also leaking of compression. So your dynamic compression is to low this is why the manufactures recommend higher compression ratios for larger cams.
Low dynamic compression causes the fuel to burn to slow, This reduces the amount off fuel that burns robbing your motor of power. The typical combustion engine only burns 12 % give or take a few percent, RPM is not the answer either, the harder you turn it due to the slow burn rate the worse the phenomenon is going to get due to the fact that the piston is traveling faster allowing even less time for the fuel to burn, so turning it harder wont help in this case. Advancing the timing might help more fuel burn prior to the piston starting the exhaust stroke.
Swap the cam, or swap the pistons and it will make 420 plus. Make sure you call a reputable company and tell them what your setup is so they can get you a cam that is compatible with your setup.
white99ta
05-22-2012, 08:23 PM
fixed...
:hysterical: thanks. well, there was that tan 240 doing donuts a couple weeks ago.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 08:31 PM
No the only thing on the engine besides the shortblock that is off the the truck is the balancer all excessories and brackets are from the ls1. It's all interchangeable.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 08:39 PM
Id go back to your old cam if you have it get rid of the cam you have now and try to get something thatll work with your setup. I got a comp cams custom grind and the drivablity is awesome and its got a decent amount of power. Havent got it dynoed yet though. The cam specs are adv dur: 285/ 289 dur @ .050 232/236 112lsa valve lift .579/.579.I dont know how much thatll help but i do have stock heads and injectors. If you need any help ill be up in West Ashely this weekend and i got a 96 so ill have a little more time. You got my number just text me and let me know. I might be at sss sat too but havent been going cause its the same shit every weekend and the same punkass kids doing stupid shit with their 100rwhp coolness.
Unfortunately I can't use the old cam because it had a flatend lobe but I will be looking for something better
schardbody
05-22-2012, 09:23 PM
No the only thing on the engine besides the shortblock that is off the the truck is the balancer all excessories and brackets are from the ls1. It's all interchangeable.
it absolutely is not....
ForceFed4g63
05-22-2012, 09:29 PM
Holy hell just post some pics and end the controversy.
Matts94Z28
05-22-2012, 09:31 PM
http://m.modernhemi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15317078&postcount=3
bwelch
05-22-2012, 09:36 PM
http://m.modernhemi.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15317078&postcount=3
you can't believe what you read on the internet forums. The OP obviously has a truck balancer that works with a car water pump....
1998ta__1991rs
05-22-2012, 09:36 PM
quit smoking crack, your car doesn't have a truck balancer
Red99T/A
05-22-2012, 09:38 PM
lol at the tags.
BigdaddyDupree
05-22-2012, 10:19 PM
if he thinks the original lq4 balancer is the problem then let's all not try to help him. He's obviously a damn idiot.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-22-2012, 10:32 PM
Maybe he doesnt run a belt. Lmao.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 10:56 PM
I'll tell you what I'll make anybody any bet of any amount of money that my car has the truck balancer if you do not believe me I will gladly make a bet with you because I know I will win. You can come right to my house and see for yourself. I'll even give you a ride. Lmao!!! And bring a stock ls1 balancer to compair with. Why is this so hard to believe ?
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 10:58 PM
Holy hell just post some pics and end the controversy.
I don't have any pics of it but as I said anyone can come see it if they want to plus a pic wouldn't prove anything anyways
ForceFed4g63
05-22-2012, 10:58 PM
I'll tell you what I'll make anybody any bet of any amount of money that my car has the truck balancer if you do not believe me I will gladly make a bet with you because I know I will win. You can come right to my house and see for yourself. I'll even give you a ride. Lmao!!! And bring a stock ls1 balancer to compair with. Why is this so hard to believe ?
Edit: got ninja'd.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 11:00 PM
lol at the tags.
Funny shit right!?! This guy knows
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 11:02 PM
Okay tomorrow when it's light out I will take a picture to make you guys happy unless anybody still wants to make a bet with me hey I'm all about making some money I need some parts for my car
ForceFed4g63
05-22-2012, 11:04 PM
Betting is involved now, where's Bryan? :D
TurboWS6
05-22-2012, 11:06 PM
Funny shit right!?! This guy knows
Actually I know Justin pretty well, and yes he does know turns out he owns a LS WS6 and a beautiful red LS T/A and a LS Camaro. Really a nice guy too buy the way.
This thread needs to die seems, like its getting off topic, people are just pissing in your cheerios you asked some questions and now you have the answers.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 11:30 PM
Your right I just think its funny these guys don't believe me. I'm hoping somebody will make a bet with me. Yea I know Justin to. I imagine he got a good laugh outa that.
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 11:33 PM
Your right I just think its funny these guys don't believe me. I'm hoping somebody will make a bet with me. Yea I know Justin to. I imagine he got a good laugh outa that.
Don't think I've seen the camaro though
transamguy24
05-22-2012, 11:44 PM
lol at the tags.
What I meant is Justin knows I have the truck balancer that's why he said lol
schardbody
05-23-2012, 12:07 AM
just explain to us how you aligned everything so we can all be "in the know" aswell... i'm just doubting you because i know the alignment is off, so if you didnt shim anything and arent slinging belts you are the ONLY one.
white99ta
05-23-2012, 01:10 AM
I don't know what the truck balancer looks like but I've seen the balancer on his car and its a lot bigger than the ls1 balancer.
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 01:39 AM
The alignment is just a hair off but it's not off enough to cause any issues the belt still lines up perfectly straight with no problem I've had no issues and I've been running this engine for 10,000 miles now
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 01:42 AM
Maybe you guys are thinking about some of the newer Lq4 engines mine happens to be a 99 maybe it's different
Red99T/A
05-23-2012, 06:45 AM
What I meant is Justin knows I have the truck balancer that's why he said lol
I hate to do this to you man, but I do NOT know if you have the correct balancer or not. You guys were finished with the build by the time I saw the car in its current configuration.
Actually I know Justin pretty well, and yes he does know turns out he owns a LS WS6 and a beautiful red LS T/A and a LS Camaro. Really a nice guy too buy the way.
This thread needs to die seems, like its getting off topic, people are just pissing in your cheerios you asked some questions and now you have the answers.
Thanks Preston! Rep for you sir! :cheers
snakeplissken
05-23-2012, 08:09 AM
...
wigsplitter
05-23-2012, 08:45 AM
I had to put a ls1 balancer on mine the lq4 one was way off and I didn't have to machine it to fit
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 09:07 AM
Your right I just think its funny these guys don't believe me. I'm hoping somebody will make a bet with me. Yea I know Justin to. I imagine he got a good laugh outa that.
I'll take that bet. And I don't even like to gamble. I wil wager 50 bucks and I have a 5.3 balancer to bring to compare. A 6.0 is a truck motor that has truck accessories just like the 5.3. The truck accessories stick out about a full belt width further than the LS1 accessories. If you change everthing else and not the balancer the belt would not line up. Period end of discussion. Perhaps upon reassembling the engine you grabbed the LS1 balancer when you thought you grabbed the 6.0. Perhaps you thought you sold an LS1 to some poor bastard but in reality sold him a 6.0 balancer. They look identical in the belt area just the center hub is offset more on one than the other. I know all this because i just changed my 5.3 truck engine from truck accessories to LS1 accessories. You have several people with more LS experience than me telling you the same thing. It is not an LQ4 balancer if you are truly running a F body water pump ps pump and alternator and they are not shimmed out.
ForceFed4g63
05-23-2012, 09:13 AM
I'll take that bet. And I don't even like to gamble. I wil wager 50 bucks and I have a 5.3 balancer to bring to compare. A 6.0 is a truck motor that has truck accessories just like the 5.3. The truck accessories stick out about a full belt width further than the LS1 accessories. If you change everthing else and not the balancer the belt would not line up. Period end of discussion. Perhaps upon reassembling the engine you grabbed the LS1 balancer when you thought you grabbed the 6.0. Perhaps you thought you sold an LS1 to some poor bastard but in reality sold him a 6.0 balancer. They look identical in the belt area just the center hub is offset more on one than the other. I know all this because i just changed my 5.3 truck engine from truck accessories to LS1 accessories. You have several people with more LS experience than me telling you the same thing. It is not an LQ4 balancer if you are truly running a F body water pump ps pump and alternator and they are not shimmed out.
The transformation is complete, before my very eyes. Shawn is now an LS man.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 09:15 AM
Besides they aren't really "balancers" anyway. These engines are internally balanced which is why you can swap them around from engine to engine. They are really just dampeners.
1iron
05-23-2012, 09:18 AM
I'll take that bet. And I don't even like to gamble. I wil wager 50 bucks and I have a 5.3 balancer to bring to compare. A 6.0 is a truck motor that has truck accessories just like the 5.3. The truck accessories stick out about a full belt width further than the LS1 accessories. If you change everthing else and not the balancer the belt would not line up. Period end of discussion. Perhaps upon reassembling the engine you grabbed the LS1 balancer when you thought you grabbed the 6.0. Perhaps you thought you sold an LS1 to some poor bastard but in reality sold him a 6.0 balancer. They look identical in the belt area just the center hub is offset more on one than the other. I know all this because i just changed my 5.3 truck engine from truck accessories to LS1 accessories. You have several people with more LS experience than me telling you the same thing. It is not an LQ4 balancer if you are truly running a F body water pump ps pump and alternator and they are not shimmed out.
Don't know much about them LS motas but a got $50 I'll put in with SBM.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 09:21 AM
The transformation is complete, before my very eyes. Shawn is now an LS man.
Indeed. When I got the silver car with a Windsor I said I'd never have another 302 based motor. Now, with not even having driven the car with an LS based motor I can say that I will probably have an LS in every thing else I build. I really like these motors.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 09:25 AM
Don't know much about them LS motas but a got $50 I'll put in with SBM.
Hot damn. Get Corey Mack in here to lock in some big money. He sleeps on stacks....
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 09:57 AM
I don't know what to tell you guys. Maybe the 5.3L different from the 6.0L. I could not get the LS1 bouncer to fit on the crank, I had to use the Lq4 balancer. I live in west Ashley so if you live in Charleston and want to come by I'll pm you my address.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 10:12 AM
Id like some time to get a bigger pot together.
ForceFed4g63
05-23-2012, 10:14 AM
Id like some time to get a bigger pot together.
I'll put a 20 spot in.
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 10:31 AM
Id like some time to get a bigger pot together.
That's fine I need all the money I can get So I'll wait
MARTYROBBINS
05-23-2012, 10:36 AM
i got $20 on it and ill go get my lq4 truck balancer to match it up
wigsplitter
05-23-2012, 10:37 AM
http://www.nookandtranny.com/Info_LSx.php
ForceFed4g63
05-23-2012, 10:42 AM
http://www.nookandtranny.com/Info_LSx.php
Cliff Notes:
There are basically 3 different harmonic balancers that effect belt spacing : (1) Corvette and Cadillac (car), (2) Camaro/Firebird and GTO, (3) Truck series and SUV. As you can clearly see, the distance between the crankshaft end and where the belt rides are different in all 3. All of the LS based balancers are neutral balanced, and can be installed on any LS application as long as the same platform accessories are used.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 10:44 AM
http://www.nookandtranny.com/Info_LSx.php
Winner winner chicken dinner. Reps
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 10:47 AM
Please send my $50 to shawnboymoody@aol.com.
BigdaddyDupree
05-23-2012, 10:52 AM
i have a lq4 and 5.3 balancer (identical) i can bring
wigsplitter
05-23-2012, 11:03 AM
Its probably a lt1 thats why its not making power
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 11:13 AM
Perhaps upon reassembling the engine you grabbed the LS1 balancer when you thought you grabbed the 6.0. Perhaps you thought you sold an LS1 to some poor bastard but in reality sold him a 6.0 balancer.
So I started going through all the pics of the swap. I looked at the ls1 with the balancer still installed as well as the lq4. And your right that is exactly what happened. Now I feel like a retard. I do remember having problems getting the ls1 balancer on the crank. I couldn't seem to get it to go on all the way. I don't remember getting it to work but Its on there. So you guys were right and I'm an idot:hide: Sorry for getting you guys all riled up.
ForceFed4g63
05-23-2012, 11:20 AM
Shawn you collect the monies and I'll meet up with you later to get my 20 spot. Kthx
1iron
05-23-2012, 12:14 PM
Shawn you collect the monies and I'll meet up with you later to get my 20 spot. Kthx
2x
Mr. Camaro
05-23-2012, 12:29 PM
Hot damn. Get Corey Mack in here to lock in some big money. He sleeps on stacks....
DAMN to late to lock in, i was going to lock in 2k. o well
2001hawk
05-23-2012, 01:06 PM
So I started going through all the pics of the swap. I looked at the ls1 with the balancer still installed as well as the lq4. And your right that is exactly what happened. Now I feel like a retard. I do remember having problems getting the ls1 balancer on the crank. I couldn't seem to get it to go on all the way. I don't remember getting it to work but Its on there. So you guys were right and I'm an idot:hide: Sorry for getting you guys all riled up.
Figured I would at least say good job for correcting yourself instead of just letting the issue drop. Seems like a lot of guys these days can't shake hands with someone and say I stand corrected.
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 01:15 PM
Figured I would at least say good job for correcting yourself instead of just letting the issue drop. Seems like a lot of guys these days can't shake hands with someone and say I stand corrected.
Agreed. Props on that.
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 01:19 PM
And thanks for that it wasn't easy to do I feel like a dumbass but on the upside I now know that I don't have one problem I thought I had.
LXtasy
05-23-2012, 03:03 PM
Congrats for admitting it. Now lets see about that cam. Or save up your money and get some good heads on there.
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 03:22 PM
Yea I've already given my info to a shop in north chuck and there Gunna spec a cam for me and I'll start saving up for it. By the way I got my hands on a nearly new ls2 clutch, flywheel, and disk. Not Gunna use it so I'm looking to sell it or make a trade if anyones interested
MonteC
05-23-2012, 06:44 PM
has the bet been paid yet?
ShawnBoyMoody
05-23-2012, 07:05 PM
Um yeah no lol
MonteC
05-23-2012, 07:26 PM
Gonna have to send this one out to the "collection agency".
transamguy24
05-23-2012, 08:21 PM
Broke at the moment gotta sell this clutch. Any takers it's pretty much new
FRDnemesis
05-23-2012, 11:36 PM
By the way I'm not in denial about the cam I know it's a little bit too big with nonported heads but at the same time I appreciate advice but I do not appreciate criticism
If you port the combustion chamber, you are going to lower your CR even more and kill the bottom end even more.
There are three schools of thought here; if the car runs and sounds good regardless of the dyno sheet, then just enjoy the car.
OR
Change the pistons back to stock CR and pick up a set of worked heads
OR
Change your cam to help offset the bad piston combo.
I know nobody wants to tear into a motor they just put back together but realistically, those are your only options.
I had a 200k mile LS1 junkyard motor and with an off the shelf Comp Cam(236/244 .595/.605 on a 112 LSA), set of LS6 Patriot Heads, Edelbrock Stepped Long Tubes, FAST 90/90 combo and a tune by Minytrkr. On a local dynojet, the car made 465/412. Nothing special, just a good combo of parts
*EDIT*
I just read your last post. I see you are going to have someone (I assume HHP) spec you out a new camshaft. Thats going to be cheaper than doing pistons and balancing your rotating assembly. I'd make use of those dish pistons and spray the hell out of it!
transamguy24
05-24-2012, 01:49 AM
http://www.carolinahorsepower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11822&page=5
I just read your last post. I see you are going to have someone (I assume HHP) spec you out a new camshaft. Thats going to be cheaper than doing pistons and balancing your rotating assembly. I'd make use of those dish pistons and spray the hell out of it![/QUOTE]
Yeah first I'm going to see about getting a new cam however long it takes and eventually I do plan on either going nitrous or rear mount turbo at some point might a few years down the line. By the way I appreciate the advice man.
TurboWS6
05-24-2012, 06:03 AM
http://www.carolinahorsepower.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11822&page=5
I just read your last post. I see you are going to have someone (I assume HHP) spec you out a new camshaft. Thats going to be cheaper than doing pistons and balancing your rotating assembly. I'd make use of those dish pistons and spray the hell out of it!
Yeah first I'm going to see about getting a new cam however long it takes and eventually I do plan on either going nitrous or rear mount turbo at some point might a few years down the line. By the way I appreciate the advice man.[/QUOTE]
Trust me you don't want a remote mount, I had one for about three years caused nothing but problems, oil leaks, bad missing in rain, broken exhaust pipes, slow spooling of turbo. Ect. There are plenty of good used front mount kits available on ls1 tech. Or you can have bad bob ( Robert) fab up one using truck manifolds, keep in mind if you decide to go turbo your going to have to swap the cam again if this next one has a lot of overlap. I say put a 150 pill on it, get bigger injectors, and a cam and enjoy the 600 rwhp your car will make. Total spent will be about 1K. Vs a turbo at 5K plus.
SLOWGREEN73
05-24-2012, 08:10 AM
Ill bet 500.00 we got a f body waterpump that lines up perfectly with a lq4 crank pulley.
MonteC
05-24-2012, 12:31 PM
Ill bet 500.00 we got a f body waterpump that lines up perfectly with a lq4 crank pulley.
But not the fbody accessories.
SLOWGREEN73
05-24-2012, 12:45 PM
Stips lol
1998ta__1991rs
05-24-2012, 08:15 PM
Ill bet 500.00 we got a f body waterpump that lines up perfectly with a lq4 crank pulley.
Because it has a truck pulley.
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