Knock sensor or dealer copout?

[PapaBear]

So, having my issues with number 8 misfiring at 4000+ RPM. Took to dealer after switching plug, wire, coil, injector, and still same issue.*

Went there today and went for a ride with the tech. He is trying to say that header is hitting frame at WOT and tripping knock sensor to pull timing from #8 only.*

Is this possible? *I know the clearances are tight with the pace setters but can knock sensor pull timing from only one cylinder? *

Or are they tryin to get out of digging deeper into it?

[1998ta__1991rs]

knock sensors don't do that

[PapaBear]

That's what I thought. Went for a ride with the tech with scanner hooked up and it read 0* knock retard the whole time but he is insisting that's what it is.

[PapaBear]

Just got off phone with tech, he's saying his log is showing knock on all cylinders. Once again, blaming it on headers. My Aeroforce shows 150+ misfires on #8 from 4000 through shift and NONE on any other cylinder.*

So pissed.

[98nbmz]

Crank sensor maybe? But I dont see that just randomly going out after the mods you did at all. What was the tech using to log the car? Is the mis-fire just a hiccup or constant after 4k? Look for possible drops in voltage.

[bambooi]

On my first evo with the wrong downpipe, it hit the transfer case and pulled timing.

[chrisheltra]

I have sigs and avatars turned of so excuse me for asking but Im curious what kind of car you are having issues with?

Do you have a tune for your headers?

[LXtasy]

Tbss

[yota]

http://www.gmfullsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90314

possibly?

[PapaBear]

So when I talked to him, he says there are only 280 misfires in the history. I unhooked battery the other day, and it has only been driven to "failure" three times since. 2 of them were when he was driving and I was riding shotgun with GM TECH 2 scanner in my lap. It was set on knock retard monitor, and it NEVER showed any knock retard while I had it. He had it recording, and says now that he reviewed the data, it was detecting knock on all cylinders, not just #8.

280 misfires in three 3 second goes at WOT. But if I monitor with aeroforce gauge (can monitor misfires on each cylinder individually), it will hit 150+ on #8 ONLY from 4000RPM through 1-2 shift. So I don't know what to think.

I told him if he felt so strongly about it, to make some clearance....dimple the primary a little bit or dent the fucking framerail, whatever, but that I wasn't going to pick the truck up, do it myself, and then have to bring it back when that wasn't the problem.

I don't know much about knock sensors and retard and all that, but with only 2 sensors, I find it hard to believe that the sensor can sense that only 1 cylinder is knocking b/c of a harmonic "noise/vibration" in the header. Just doesn't make sense. I have heard some valvetrain noise a couple of times, and told them that.

BUT, it seems that he is hell-bent on blaming it on this instead of checking other things first.

Then, he says the "ticking" noise I heard in the valvetrain was water dripping from A/C onto collector....WTF? I'm not a fucking idiot. I told this guy that I wasn't Joe Blow off the street with a TBSS, I have been wrenching on cars all my life, and know what valve train noise is. There was this little plastic hose that comes out of firewall that routes condensation away from exhaust.....well I found the piece of hose in my driveway. Water drips directly on collector, and guess what it sounds like.......water dripping on something hot, UNDER the truck.



I have a feeling that I will be getting a call on Monday saying that they clearanced the header and still have problem. When they tell me it's a valve spring or something like I thought all along, and told them 20 times, I am going to laugh at this guy.

So I told them I wanted Martin, Doug, or Deon, and instead got some young kid named Kelly. We'll see I guess.

[bambooi]

That is the bad thing about dealerships. They blame it on mods. If they can't fix it, you need to take it to a tuning shop that knows what they are doing.

[PapaBear]

But, of course, if he's right, I will thank him and admit "defeat".

[PapaBear]

This is a "mod friendly" dealership and this will be warrantied if it's internal.

[schardbody]

its NOT the knock sensor......

tell him to disconnect the knock sensor harness (back of intake manifold), this will set a knock code and retard the shit out of the timing, but it wont cause a misfire.....

tell him he is a fucking moron and pick your truck up, then call GM directly, ask them where to take it for your warranty work because you do not want that service department working on it again.

sounds like the tech just doesnt know his shit, because false knock will not cause a misfire, real knock could possibly, but "if" he is blaming the headers causing false knock then whats up with the misfires? his story doesnt hold up.....

might i ask what dealership this is and what the tech's name was? i know quite a few people in the industry.

[PapaBear]

Yep Rick Hendrick chevy in west Ashley. Tech is Kelly as mentioned above.

My uncle worked there for 20+ years, wish he was still there.....



SO, might I ask, what do YOU think it could be? Weak/broken valve spring?

[csikx]

Yep Rick Hendrick chevy in west Ashley. Tech is Kelly as mentioned above.

My uncle worked there for 20+ years, wish he was still there.....



SO, might I ask, what do YOU think it could be? Weak/broken valve spring?

So their service department is just as fucking shitty as their sales department, nice! I'd never buy or take anything to those dickfaces at Rick Hendrick.

Hope you get the problem solved man.

[PapaBear]

Worst part is the rental car....a fucking HHR.

What a POS. Damn thing won't get out of it's own way and is uncomfortable as hell. I asked for a vette for a rental jokingly, he said he had one and walked me out to the HHR. Got me.

[csikx]

Fuckin ey. I had to drive a HHR for someone at work and I could barely fit. Slow as balls too.

[Matts94Z28]

Kelley is not a young kid. He is a team leader and is one of the more certified mechanics there. Has a nasty vette as well. I will swing in tomorrow since I will be in the area.

[PapaBear]

Thanks Matt.

Not sayin that he doesn't know what he's doing at all. Just that he seemed hell bent on sticking with the knock thing and that he acted like I had no clue what I was talking about.

I tried to tell him that I know everything because I have the Internet.

[LXtasy]

did you tell him you have read ls1tech? He would have listened than

[PapaBear]

Kelley is not a young kid. He is a team leader and is one of the more certified mechanics there. Has a nasty vette as well. I will swing in tomorrow since I will be in the area.

This might be why Chris (service manager) went and got him personally to meet me in service drive. Chris looks out or me.

[1 Slow Z]

false knock will not cause a misfire, real knock could possibly, but "if" he is blaming the headers causing false knock then whats up with the misfires?

I'm not too smart on the electronic side of things, but can a PCM differentiate between "false" & "real" knock? How does the PCM know the difference between the two?

[BAD BOB]

he is saying that knock in general should not cause a misfire. i dont feel that even if it did cause a misfire that it would single out one cylinder to misfire being that the ignition isnt controlled individually per cyl

[schardbody]

exactly what i meant, the tech is claiming the headers are causing false knock, which i'm ASSuming he is blaming the false knock for the cylinder #8 misfire...... which isnt possible.

if its picking up false knock (like alot of GMs do anyways) then it would simply pull timing, not cause a noticeable misfire above XXXX rpm, loss of power, but definately not a SINGLE cylinder misfire.

even real knock (detonation or pre-ignition) shouldnt theoretically cause a misfire either, so using knock as the cause of a misfire is in my opinion a cop out (or just an uneducated technician) which in this case doesnt seem to be the case.

PAPABEAR, since it seems to be related to RPM i'd imagine its valvetrain related, but thats just an educated guess.

my question would be does it seem to be more noticeable in higher/lower gears, when the engine is cold/hot, and when did it start.....

[1998ta__1991rs]

a knock sensor will not cause one single cylinder to pull timing, this is a gm system not a big stuff 3, dont feel bad about the HHR, when i took my tbss in for work they gave me an aveo

[PapaBear]

PAPABEAR, since it seems to be related to RPM i'd imagine its valvetrain related, but thats just an educated guess.

my question would be does it seem to be more noticeable in higher/lower gears, when the engine is cold/hot, and when did it start.....

it does it hot and cold an above 4000 rpm and in every gear.

I Forgot to add that he brought up my motor mounts. He said I could have a mount bad that is causing the header to e too close to frame rail.

This is the stuff I'm talking about. That just doesn't make sense to me. Really grabbing for things at this point instead of diggin in. A motor mount on a 3 year old vehicle with 50k miles isn't very common.

I just want my truck back.

[98nbmz]

So their service department is just as fucking shitty as their sales department, nice! I'd never buy or take anything to those dickfaces at Rick Hendrick.

Hope you get the problem solved man.

Hey hey hey... My Uncle Les is a salesman there and he is no dickface sir.

[PapaBear]

Les Rogers has sold me 5 vehicles. Great guy. Used to live next door to my uncle Chris.

[Matts94Z28]

Les has sold us two. He is the ONLY person I would go to at Hendrick. Great guy.

[schardbody]

Papabear why even think about false knock at this point whether its from headers a motor mount or anything else because its not causing your misfire. They do understand that's what you are trying to get fixed right?

[PapaBear]

Yes they do. I'm not worried.

I am actually looking forward to saying I TOLD U SO!

[csikx]

Hey hey hey... My Uncle Les is a salesman there and he is no dickface sir.

Diamond in the rough :).

[Derek]

I hate little quirks like that. Knock sensor can be a little tricky and pick up some intrerferance from time to time. But when they are activated it should pull timing and reduce some power not pop and misfire. JP might be the guy to help you, log some pulls turn some stuff on and off should help you isolate the problem.

[PapaBear]

I'm not paying Jamie $375 to tune my truck, sorry. This will be figured out by the dealer. All I know about knock sensors after all this and all the reading I've done is that I don't know shit about them!

[LXtasy]

Have you tried to isolate the latest mods you installed and slowly determine if any of them is causing this? i.e. plug wires and all?

[1998ta__1991rs]

heres another thing to think about, what if it actually is knocking? cylinders 7 and 8 are prone to it b/c they usually run about 20-30* hotter than the rest. why dont you just pull a valve cover off and see if the spring is broke?

[bwelch]

Did they decide the injector wasn't causing it? If its not an injector then its most likely a valvetrain issue

[1998ta__1991rs]

it could be as deep of a problem as the reluctor wheel on the crank or cam having a small nick in it. start with the simple stuff instead of letting it sit at the dealership for days, i promise your truck is the least of their worries when they have easier money coming through the door. go get it back and swap the coil pack with another, swap the injector with another, pull the valve spring out and ckeck it, make sure the rocker is torqued down properly, make sure the pushrod isnt bent, swap the wires and plugs. thats a lot of simple stuff you could do yourself that doesnt take much time

[PapaBear]

I've already done all the simple stuff. Remember my other thread? Re read my first post. I have swapped EVERYTHING and done everything short of pulling the valve cover.

I have ruled out injector, plug, wire, coil pack, and tune.

[1998ta__1991rs]

pull the valve cover, it has to be somthing in the valvetrain then

[bwelch]

Time for a cam swap while your in there!

[1 Slow Z]

pull the valve cover, it has to be somthing in the valvetrain then

x2, that is more than likely where the issue is.

[98nbmz]

Les Rogers has sold me 5 vehicles. Great guy. Used to live next door to my uncle Chris.

Yup, Chris always use to come fish out at my house. 25 cent on Bent pushrod

[PapaBear]

I told tech 20 times it was valve train. Whet do I know lol.

[Derek]

I'm not paying Jamie $375 to tune my truck, sorry. This will be figured out by the dealer. All I know about knock sensors after all this and all the reading I've done is that I don't know shit about them!

I didn't say jamie did I?

[PapaBear]

I didn't say jamie did I?

Nope and I didn't mean to either. JP rather. Sorry.

[ElecTech]

I don't wan't to get too deep into this, but the GM knock detection can determine which cylynder is knocking by first, considering which sensor is triggering (front/rear or in later years left/right). Then, it will use the current crank position and firing order to determine the offending cylinder. It also can control firing events on a cylinder by cylinder basis.

As far as misfires go, understand that the PCM does not detect a misfire, per se, it only detects rotational speed variations between predicted firing events. So any condition that causes a variation in rotational speed can be viewed as a "misfire" by the PCM. It doesn't have to be an actual lack of or incomplete combustion.

I'm in no way supporting the techs claims, just wanted to clarify a few things.

I hope you get it figured out soon. These situations can be very frustrating.

Good luck.

[schardbody]

jaime i agree, this is why my first suggestion was unplug the knock sensor harness, which would make the pcm pull timing automatically and see if there is any change (besides less power)..... if it still has the misfire then its not false knock produced by the headers and they need to look further.

if it were the headers causing false knock it wouldnt show as a single cylinder misfire..... so regardless its a cop out....

[PapaBear]

I just don't know what to do. Do I call them today and tell em i'm gonna come get the truck? Or do I let them figure it out?

So tired of thinking about this......

[csikx]

Why not try Crews Chevrolet and see what they say?

[PapaBear]

That's what I was thinking, but Hendrick gave me a rental car.....which on the way to work decided it was going to start going crazy and saying stability control is broken...>WTF.

I'm wondering, if I go back and demand my truck back, will they make me pay for the rental?

[PapaBear]

Need some advice guys.........

Service manager called me, and says that they can't figure out what's going on. He now wants money to change plugs/wires out to stock, and go from there. Not only that, he's asking if i'm gonna "help him out" with the work they've already done?

His specific quote "We can't find anything NON-OEM that could be causing this."

YET THEY STILL HAVEN"T PULLED THE VALVE COVER? WTF?

What am I supposed to do? Let them put plugs/wires on it? Problem is, clearance issues with LT headers and stock wires, #2 and #7 primaries will melt the wires. And they want to charge me?

HELP

[LXtasy]

Get some protective boots for the wires. The stock metal ones should work, or even any autoparts store sells them. Worth a shot.

[PapaBear]

There are heat socks on the PCMforless wires now. I just called em back and said to put plugs/wires on it with my socks. If it doesn't fix it, I told him I wanted it returned to the way it was and for them to figure out what's going on.

[bwelch]

Thats not the problem if you switch the wires around and changed the plug already and it stayed the same. They aren't gonna figure it out. If they really wanted to figure it out it would be fixed by now and you wouldn't be driving that pos HHR. The problem is on one cyclinder but they want to put stock shit on all of the cyclinder and then they are gonna @ss rape you on the price of plugs, wires, and install. The problem with most dealerships is that some of the techs dont know shit about diagnosing a problem they just throw parts at it until they get lucky. Take it to somebody who knows what they are doing and pay them to diagnose the problem. It will cost the same as the stock plugs, wires, and there labor. talk to Gerald maybe he can figure it out.

[red99pony]

yea i say Gerald too. he found some strange shit on my mustang. depends on if he is up to the challenge, or has the free time.

[minytrker]

There are heat socks on the PCMforless wires now. I just called em back and said to put plugs/wires on it with my socks. If it doesn't fix it, I told him I wanted it returned to the way it was and for them to figure out what's going on.

What exactly did you change when the miss fire started?

I did work (tuning) for several of the dealers in Charleston/North Charleston when I had my shop in North Charleston. After being the dealers and dealing with there tech's I lost faith in there mechanical skill's.

[PapaBear]

Well, all of this started after Gerald had my truck for a week or so. He did trans build,longtubes with catless y pipe and plugs and wires.

About 600 miles later this started. I never really got on it hard during the first 4-500 miles, but a week before I noticed this issue, I hammered it a couple of times on the interstate fucking up a dodge neon and never had one issue.

I'm at a loss. I really really hope that stock plugs and wires DOESN'T fix it, cuz if they do I gotta pay for them and eat my words.

[PapaBear]

Oh and service manager had the followin to say about the tech: "he's one of my top guys, and surely the most experienced with MODIFIED vehicles."

Intake and exhaust is modified now? WTF? I put intake and exhaust on my 07 silvy a week after it rolled off the lot? Everybody does!

[White00gt]

Confucius say; the tech should have found the bad muffler bearing a long time ago....

seriously, I'm not feeling like the dealership is going to warranty your actual issue if they ever actually do find it. So I would take it to somebody more performance oriented and get aftermarket go fast goodies vs stock stuff.

[minytrker]

With an aftermarket converter you can get false miss fires. I usually do a crank re-learn and also have to adjust miss-fire tables in the tune for vehicles with cam or after market stall.

[PapaBear]

With an aftermarket converter you can get false miss fires. I usually do a crank re-learn and also have to adjust miss-fire tables in the tune for vehicles with cam or after market stall.

Does it regardless

[chrisheltra]

He did trans build, converter, longtubes with catless y pipe and plugs and wires.

I wouldn't even bother messing with the dealership. Ford would void the power train warranty in a heart beat if you brought in your vehicle to them with all these mods. No doubt you also have a tune on it?

[minytrker]

Did it with my tuned ECM as well as stock ECM.

Did your tuner do a crank re-learn after you installed the new pcm? Thats the first thing I do when I install a new pcm in something. I have seen crank re-learns fix some weird issues before.

[PapaBear]

I wouldn't even bother messing with the dealership. Ford would void the power train warranty in a heart beat if you brought in your vehicle to them with all these mods. No doubt you also have a tune on it?
Truck is untuned at this point.

[gearmesh, inc.]

Crane makes a valve spring compressor tool you can use while the head is still on the block. Looks like it compresses both intake and exhaust valves at the same time for one cylinder.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99472-1/

[PapaBear]

Well, i'ts now 1PM and they haven't called me. Think that means it still won't run with stock plugs/wires?

[PapaBear]

Crane makes a valve spring compressor tool you can use while the head is still on the block. Looks like it compresses both intake and exhaust valves at the same time for one cylinder.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-99472-1/

That little friggin thing costs $114.95? WTF? I'm in the wrong business.


And Gerald, does that mean that you concur on our diagnosis of valve train and not ignition?

[csikx]

Maybe it is just a coincidence, but this is why I'm afraid to tune my car, or add some other parts.

[1998ta__1991rs]

Maybe it is just a coincidence, but this is why I'm afraid to tune my car, or add some other parts.

get a good local tuner (JP) that is willing to help you out and there isnt an issue

[1998ta__1991rs]

tell them to do a crank relearn (has to be done with efilive or a tech 2) and see if it fixes the problem

[PapaBear]

tell them to do a crank relearn (has to be done with efilive or a tech 2) and see if it fixes the problem

That's why I took it to them, man. They're the professionals. What do I know, right?

I suggested it yesterday, and he said he did it. We'll see I guess.

[White00gt]

They're the professionals.

From what I've been reading in this thread, the above statement along with many other are incorrect.

[PapaBear]

430 and not one phone call all day. Hmmmmm......

[LXtasy]

does your phone make calls too or just receive them? If it can make a call out than call them and check. Don't wait around for them to call

[gearmesh, inc.]

That little friggin thing costs $114.95? WTF? I'm in the wrong business.


And Gerald, does that mean that you concur on our diagnosis of valve train and not ignition?

The cost of the tool will be chump change compared to what Hendrick will probably end up charging you for chasing ghosts on their end. I believe JP has one of those tools that can be borrowed for a minor fee to keep from purchasing one outright.

Valvetrain is about the only area left to dig into other than unplugging the knock sensors via the plug at the rear of the intake and going for a ride. Unplugging the knock sensors will back the timing up some, but still leave enough to twist up to the top of the tach.

It isn't all that bad to get a valve cover off. It just looks intimidating with the coil pack rack and heater hoses run across the top. Its probably just as hard to get the rear plug out to put an air line to it to hold the valves up.

[1 Slow Z]

Rob (MonteC) might lent you rent his spring compressor.

[bambooi]

I bought the right tool made by rsi(i think) for the ls engines when I did my z06 spring swap. You will be hurting if you get a cheap one. The right tool for the job makes things so simple.

[98Camarod]

What size converter? I had to have my misfire tables adjusted because it was breaking up at 4500 rpm

[minytrker]

I had to have my misfire tables adjusted because it was breaking up at 4500 rpm

I mentioned that already, thats my guess to.

[PapaBear]

I left 3 messages today with no return call. Really fed up but willing to hear them out.

[CINDERBLOCK]

How long they gunna have thing?

[chrisheltra]

Are they gonna pay your car note this month?

[Matts94Z28]

Dang, they buying it back from you?

[minytrker]

My TC is a circle D 3200. First person with problems.



Its doesnt mean there is something wrong with the TC, you just have to adjust the tune for most aftermarket TC's. I had a circle D in my LS2 camaro and had to adjust the miss-fore for it, its pretty common to have to do that.

[PapaBear]

Its doesnt mean there is something wrong with the TC, you just have to adjust the tune for most aftermarket TC's. I had a circle D in my LS2 camaro and had to adjust the miss-fore for it, its pretty common to have to do that.


Believe me guys, I would not have taken it to them without trying everything short of pulling the lid off the motor.

I can, but it doesn't change the fact that as the truck sits now, with myself trying to not have to work on a warrantied motor is fine.

If they call me and say "I told u so", I'll apologize and eat my words. But plugs and wires labor ALL DAYl with no call tells me I was right.

So, I will await their call and continue to believe that I and all u guys were right. It's not ignition/fuel related. And I'm sure that contrary to what he says, my Aeroforce scan gauge is not "inaccurate" when misfires got from 0 on all cylinders to 160 on #8 and none on others.

I'm just upset with being treated like Joe blow off the street with more money than knowledge. I offered everything that I had done to remedy situation. Totally discount my information? Come on....

[Matts94Z28]

I think your missing what Lorenz is saying.

If the converter is still installed and the tune was not adjusted, the that could be the issue. A stock tune would yield the same result. Now if you have taken it out (converter), then that's a different story.

[1 Slow Z]

I'm just upset with being treated like Joe blow off the street with more money than knowledge. I offered everything that I had done to remedy situation. Totally discount my information? Come on....

Unfortunately you are "Joe Blow" off the street to them. They don't care how much you may or may not know about cars. They will tell you the same thing they'd tell my wife. The only thing they care about is getting in your pocket. That's the unfortunate truth about this whole dilemma.

[1998ta__1991rs]

I think your missing what Lorenz is saying.

If the converter is still installed and the tune was not adjusted, the that could be the issue. A stock tune would yield the same result. Now if you have taken it out (converter), then that's a different story.

what he said, it doesnt matter if both computer's/tunes are doing it if it hasnt been adjusted in the tune

[minytrker]

Atleast Matt and Zac get it, lol.

[PapaBear]

It WAS adjusted in the tune, and didn't affect it either way.

As far as Joe Blow, I have a personal relationship with this service manager. I have had for 5+ years. He knows better. But I know that he has to go on what the tech says.

Now, guess what time he called me yesterday? FRIGGIN 10:30 PM last night. WTF?

Says they pulled the valve cover (durrrrrr) and couldn't "see" anything out of place or damaged. I don't know what the process is now, I expect a phone call this morning as I was sleeping at 10:30 and told him to call me when I could better comprehend what he was saying.

[98Camarod]

You said you had a mail order tune right? So that means that you don't know what's been adjusted in the tune without seeing it and comparing it to a stock file.

You're really worried about it being a broken valve spring. I highly doubt that it is. If it takes the load all the way up to 4k rpm and then decides to mess up CONSISTENTLY there, then so be it. But I don't see a mechanical issue being consistent. I definitely think that it's tune related from the converter install.

[PapaBear]

You said you had a mail order tune right? So that means that you don't know what's been adjusted in the tune without seeing it and comparing it to a stock file.

You're really worried about it being a broken valve spring. I highly doubt that it is. If it takes the load all the way up to 4k rpm and then decides to mess up CONSISTENTLY there, then so be it. But I don't see a mechanical issue being consistent. I definitely think that it's tune related from the converter install.



Broken....not so much, but a weak valve spring causing valve float at high RPM's is not that uncommon.

[PapaBear]

But would TC problem cause misfires on only ONE cylinder?

[PapaBear]

Talked to Alvin and had him look my tune over. Definately the TC was accounted for in the tune.

Still haven't heard anything from them.

[Matts94Z28]

Did you tell Alvin about your issue or did you just ask if he "tuned" for the TC?

[PapaBear]

I told him what was up, and what had been done, and the first thing he said was pushrod........

[PapaBear]

So I just got a call.....bout damn time.....anyway, service manager was driving my truck, and says:
"Well, I'm drivin it, and it runs awesome, until you put your foot in it real hard, then it starts breakin up."

Well, Chris, that's the whole reason I brought it to you.

"Well we ohmed your plug wires, and two were over 150 ohms, really high."

Well, I thought you were gonna put stock wires on it and see?

"well we did and it still does the same thing."

Well, did you pull the valve cover, I was sleeping when I talked to you last night.

"Yeah, pulled the valve cover, and everything looks fine in there."

What about the pushrods?

"Yeah, well if it's a pushrod, that's gonna be a whole other deal."

Well, did you check? What's next?

"Well, your fan won't turn on, and we can't activate it, so I'm thinking the ECM is bad. We ordered one, it should be here tomorrow. That may be what's causing all this mess too."

Okay, keep me informed.

[minytrker]

Talked to Alvin and had him look my tune over. Definately the TC was accounted for in the tune.

Still haven't heard anything from them.


Did you do a crank re-learn with a tech II tuning software with the tuned pcm installed? If you didnt have a crank re-learn done with the tuned pcm installed you can't rule out the tune.

I don't think the dealer will find a problem, it will continue to missfire with a stock pcm if the torque converter is causing the problems. The easiest way to get this resolved would be to call JP and pay him to look at the tune and data log it. EFI Live scan tool is very good and I prefer it over a Tech II anyday. It's alot easier to use and find problems with IMO.

[minytrker]

I told him what was up, and what had been done, and the first thing he said was pushrod........

I have heard and seen stock TBSS break stock valve springs but havet heard of them having push rod problems. Of course that doesnt mean it cant be a push rod but I would bet on thats not it.

[PapaBear]

Yes I did a CASE relearn with new PCM as I was instructed to do so.

Will a datalog show a valve train issue?

[minytrker]

Yes I did a CASE relearn with new PCM as I was instructed to do so.

Will a datalog show a valve train issue?

It can if the right things are data logged, with EFI scan tool you can data log around 25 different parameters and record them. Its alot easier to data log something and record it and play it back frame by frame to see what is not right.

What did you use to do the crank re-learn? Are you 100% sure it worked? I have had to try several times before because with EFI Live you have to meet certain parameters before the re-learn will work. When you do it with efi live you are 100% sure it worked because the vehicle will cut off for a second.

[PapaBear]

It was done with a genysis scanner. And yes it worked.

[schardbody]

hope the PCM doesnt magically fix it, that'll be an expensive "mask" fix......

like a bad ground a tech found but had 5-6hrs diag time in the vehicle so he gives the "its the xxx part and cost $XXX to fix"...... just to make some dough.

[PapaBear]

Well....they called. He said he can't figure it out. Come get the truck no charge.

WTF? I asked if they investigated valvespring tensions and pushrods and the like.

NOPE. He's tired of chasing a gremlin he says.

WTF do I do now?

[Matts94Z28]

Get it home and check the push rods on your own.

[PapaBear]

Gonna get up with Neil and datalog it first....

Problem with pulling it apart myself is that right now it's my DD. Don't know that in the 4 hours a day I get at home that I'm not sleeping, that I can get it all apart and back together in that time.

[PapaBear]

Might just go to Crews on Friday and drop it off.

[ForceFed4g63]

That's pretty weak for a dealership...

[csikx]

Yeah, that is fucked up.

[PapaBear]

Even worse, he called my sister (former employee of RH Chevy, now Hyundai) and informed her of what was going on. That I had written some things on a forum that "were not very nice" and he has printed them all.

I just reread this whole thread and don't see anything "not-nice" anywhere.

Chris the service manager, and Kelly the technician, if you read this, thanks for your help.

To whomever informed them of this thread, thanks. I hope I find out who you are.

[Matts94Z28]

Do what!!

[ElecTech]

Well, this will show you that you can't say anything around here (Charleston) pertaining to performance cars without it getting around. Everyone is in bed together in this town. It's one big circle jerk. If they haven't worked for a shop or dealer at one time, they know someone who does. That's just how it goes.

Sorry for your frustrations. Let us know if we can help.

[Matts94Z28]

Already had a PM asking me if I was the one that said anything. I am kind of glad I didn't make it over to hendrick this past weekend as I had originally offered.

Keep in mind that 2-3 other Hendrick employees are registered members here.

[PapaBear]

That's the question. Thanks for replying matt. Was just curious if it came up in your conversation, no need to get all defensive it was only a question. If u didn't talk to him then it couldn't have come up.

Thanks for all you guy's help, wish this would have ended a better way.

[Derek]

Do what!!

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c282/d00z28/1269259657_omg_cat.gif

[cmd]

I learned that lesson too. Don't make ANY comments about someplace when your car is in their hands... same thing with the people who handle your food...

[ElecTech]

I learned that lesson too. Don't make ANY comments about someplace when your car is in their hands... same thing with the people who handle your food...

Should see what I did to your block.

[cmd]

Should see what I did to your block.

IS dats why its so slow???:mrgreen:

[ShawnBoyMoody]

IS dats why its so slow???:mrgreen:

Nope. Check the long haired nut behind the wheel lol.

[cmd]

Nope. Check the long haired nut behind the wheel lol.

coming from the guy who wants to put a driver 1/3 of his weight to race his car... Run ur own shit!:Finger2:

[ShawnBoyMoody]

coming from the guy who wants to put a driver 1/3 of his weight to race his car... Run ur own shit!:Finger2:

Ha. That was a joke. I will ALWAYS drive my own shit for better or worse. Your car however is like a door knob everybody gets a turn lol.

SORRY FOR THE HIJACK PAPA BEAR!

[ShawnBoyMoody]

Already had a PM asking me if I was the one that said anything. I am kind of glad I didn't make it over to hendrick this past weekend as I had originally offered.

Keep in mind that 2-3 other Hendrick employees are registered members here.

You know the saying......

TELEPHONE, TELEGRAPH, TELEPACK LOL.

[minytrker]

Well chris is an assclown anyway!! He is a worthless piece of shit, he is the reason i never went back to rick hendrick, hope he prints this and give it to gm. He cost them a few cars sales and many service appointments. He will scew you any chance he gets. He tried to void my warranty on my Z06 because they kept braking parts on it when they were working on it. I filed a complaint agaist him with gm.

[PapaBear]

Well, I am a little upset with the fact that Kelly even told Chris he thought it was a lifter (which would be covered under my powertrain warranty) and they didn't delve further. I am pleased with how polite Chris was with our "meeting" today, no matter how upset he may be. But personal feelings should not get in the way of someone doing their job. I'll leave it at that.

Text on the internet contains no emotion without the use of smilies, so he took everything I typed on here as attacks. Whatever.

When you receive the type of service I received from the service department you would be frustrated too. I have updated this thread with every dealing I have had with them, no more, no less. If expressing my dissatisfaction with the service and my frustration with the whole process makes them not WANT to work on my truck, then so be it.

[PapaBear]

Oh, bill would have been $4100. $3300 for labor to diagnose something they never could find. Weird......

[gearmesh, inc.]

Oh, bill would have been $4100. $3300 for labor to diagnose something they never could find. Weird......

I told you the valve spring compressor was going to be cheap compared to what the dealer may charge! :poke:

Glad to hear you actually got away from there with no cost. Daily driving a hot rod does have its disadvantages, though. I learned that lesson many years ago. Its damn hard to beat a daily driver that's unmodified and bone stock reliable. Fast hot rods are definitely for the weekend and after work hours enjoyment.

[PapaBear]

It's not a hot rod yet.

If it's a lifter, then it's time for some upgrades.

[LXtasy]

so if 3300 was labor what would the other 800 have been for?

[chrisheltra]

Damn that sucks!

[PapaBear]

800 for ECM and plugs and wires and shop supplies.

[LXtasy]

shop supplies...lol I always find that one funny. Sorry, carry on

[chrisheltra]

Shop supplies = finger condoms and hand lotion

[PapaBear]

Lol at chris.

This whole situation was messed up from the day I dropped the truck off. Service was......well.....you know.

[chrisheltra]

Id call GM direct and make a formal complaint. Then Id email them with a thorough chain of events with a link to this thread. After that Id probably file a complaint with the BBB and Chamber of Commerce.

I wonder if you can charge them a storage fee and have them pay for a portion of a months worth of payments and insurance too?

[PapaBear]

I don't want any trouble with GM. And I dont want anything to happen to him really, he did more than he says he should have because the truck is "modified.".

Whatever. I'll tear it apart myself if I can find someone who knows what the hell they're doing. Then I'll call him and tell him I was right, and send him a bill.

[PapaBear]

Does anybody else on here see where this thread was "not nice" towards them? I mean really? Sure you can sense my frustration in every post, but can you construe any of it as an attack on their business?

[Matts94Z28]

Not at all.

[chrisheltra]

Does anybody else on here see where this thread was "not nice" towards them? I mean really? Sure you can sense my frustration in every post, but can you construe any of it as an attack on their business?

Chalk it up to his guilty conscience bro. :bigthumb:

[PapaBear]

Chalk it up to his guilty conscience bro. :bigthumb:

I can do that but I'm still left with a performance vehicle that won't perform.

[LXtasy]

you will get no where giving them a bill.

[PapaBear]

Yeah I know, but it would make me feel better even if they didn't pay it.

[csikx]

Does anybody else on here see where this thread was "not nice" towards them? I mean really? Sure you can sense my frustration in every post, but can you construe any of it as an attack on their business?

Why do you even care? You seem pretty concerned. They didn't help you at all. Who fucking cares if they can read this thread? They should, because I wouldn't want to take my ride to a bunch of OMG 3lite cerfyed ASE wotech geniuses that couldn't diagnose this problem and just hand it back to the customer and tell them essentially to take care of it. Another reason, Rick Hendrick will never get a fucking dime of my money.

[PapaBear]

I'm concerned because I care. I thought always that chris would look out for me. He did.....kinda. But to blow me off because of something that he reads on the Internet? I didn't come on here bashing Rick Hendrick. I came on here expressing my frustrations to u guys and hoping to learn some other things to tell them to help them diagnose the problem. Sure you could read anything into it you want to but seriously?

Yeah, should have learned when they had my wifes car for more than a month and all they did was throw parts at it until they fixed it. Or did they? Four months later, same issue arises again.

Whatever. I still need help though. Anyone wanna supervise me while I dismantle top half of my motor to diagnose this thing? I'm a bolt on guy, not an engine builder. A broke one at that.....

[csikx]

If the dude was so concerned, he could have came on here and gotten some ideas or at least posted. You did nothing wrong and weren't outta line. Let them throw a temper tantrum.

[AverageJoe]

The mechanics at local gm dealers are "bolt-on" guys too. If the code reader cant find the problem, they cant fix it.

[csikx]

The mechanics at local gm dealers are "bolt-on" guys too. If the code reader cant find the problem, they cant fix it.

:hysterical:

[PapaBear]

Well apparently this guy has the most experience of all of the shop on "modified" vehicles.

How do you tell if a lifter is bad other than noise?

[ForceFed4g63]

If it's loose or looks out of place in any way from the other ones.

[98Camarod]

I definitely wouldn't dive in thinking it's a lifter. I think what you should do is talk to a local guy with hp tuners or efi live that tunes and see if they can fix your issue. That's where I and other's believe it's at. Maybe you can work something out so that if they fix it you pay, if not then thanks for your time here's some beer or something.

If you absolutely feel you have to go into the motor, I wouldn't go directly to the lifter. That involves taking the head off. Instead, take the valve cover off 8mm bolts, rocker arm 8mm bolt and check the push rod. Lay it on a flat surface and roll it. If it wobbles, then there's your problem.

Torque value for the rocker arm is 22 ft-lbs.

[ForceFed4g63]

You have to take the whole head off to check the lifters???

[98Camarod]

You have to take the whole head off to check the lifters???

yup

[ForceFed4g63]

Wow...makes me rethink wanting a V8, I'm used to popping off the valve cover and having access to everything...

[98Camarod]

This is for a lsx series motor. I don't know of anyone that has had a lifter go out on them with stock longblock. It's not something that should make you stay away by any means.

[minytrker]

The mechanics at local gm dealers are "bolt-on" guys too. If the code reader cant find the problem, they cant fix it.

Yep...thats about the end of there trouble shooting skills.

[schardbody]

they want no part of the truck anymore because they are worried about public humiliation when they cant figure out the problem......

like someone else said if the computer doesnt spit out a specific problem that localized to a very common problem then they are stumped.

the VERY second thing done should have been a compression and leakdown test, while its likely it'll come back in spec it would atleast rule out a few things.

they wouldnt be able to diagnose a valvespring issue unless its obviously broken, my opinion is its likely just weak.

a bent pushrod would cause less power from that cylinder which would show up as a misfire (cylinder contribution) but i've never seen an LS bend a pushrod even when being over revved.

a lifter is another possible cause but you really wont know much without pulling the head and swapping them since its a higher RPM issue they/it is probably going to appear fine to the eye just like the valve spring....


be glad they decided to send you packing, they never would have figured it out and you'd have a truck that was part swapped until they were fed up, because throwing parts at a problem is all they are capable of, even with all the technical support and equipment they are still incompetent....

[Matts94Z28]

Maybe schardbody can fix it!

[Matts94Z28]

Well apparently this guy has the most experience of all of the shop on "modified" vehicles.

How do you tell if a lifter is bad other than noise?

The Pushrod can be check in less than an hour if you know what you are doing. If you need help pulling them, let me know. I can give you a hand if you need it. I also have some extra push rods from a 6.0 I had. If it is in fact the issue, I can give you a new set.

I also have some stock lifters.

[gearmesh, inc.]

Dealerships only have a service department because the manufacturer makes them service what they sell as part of the franchise agreement. If the owners and upper management could have their way, they would only sell cars and that would be the end of it.

Since the service department is the bastard child sideshow of the dealership, they definitely aren't too interested in staffing the place with the brightest techs, which means the cheapest they can find. At best, only about 1 in 10 of the techs in the place that can work a vehicle from bumper to bumper. Sooner or later, the one or two smart techs will get out of the dealership game to start their own shop or find another trade.

The UAW has managed to secure the biggest chunk of money out of the price of a new car. That leaves very little cash out of the price to cover any warranty claims. Its way easier for the manufacturer to short change the franchise end of the car business via below market labor reimbursement for any warranty work done by the service department.

Warranty flat rate labor time sucks for any of the big 3. A tech can change a long block under warranty and only get paid for 8-10 hours of labor. Any decent tech that does it right will have about 13 to 15 actual hours in the job. Experienced techs won't hang around long in that environment.

Its way easier for a service department to just abandon a hard to find problem when they can point the finger at aftermarket mods. The tech only gets paid for claiming to replace a faulty part. They are lucky if they even get paid to diagnose a problem.

Be glad you got away from the dealer without them voiding your warranty nationwide. You got away from that mess about the best you could (free).

[PapaBear]

The Pushrod can be check in less than an hour if you know what you are doing. If you need help pulling them, let me know. I can give you a hand if you need it. I also have some extra push rods from a 6.0 I had. If it is in fact the issue, I can give you a new set.

I also have some stock lifters.

Thanks, Matt. Hopefully I don't have to go this route, but if I do, I appreciate the offer immensely. I can pay you in beer and food, maybe some cash if the financial department (wife) agrees. But I assure you, she is tired of this already.

[PapaBear]

Here's what the dealer "invoice" says:

Heard no engine nooise, engine and valvetrain are quiet. 8 DTC's. 6 O2 DTCs as rear sensors are missing. P0300 and P1482. Diagnosed P1482 and found that customer had spliced into cooling fan signal wire from ECM. Reconnected wire and still cannot command fan. ECM may have been damaged due to splicing. Vehicle is equipped with full length headers without catalytic converters, aftermarket exhaust system, cold air induction system w/ relocated IAT. Modified transmission with 3200 RPM stall converter. Test drove vehicle with customer and took snapshot of IGN data showing knock at hard accel. found tha tpassenger side header and Y-pipe are contacting the frame. Provided clearance for header per customer direction and took another snapshot. no knock detected, but still breaks up at high RPM. Customer has NGK plugs installed. Replaced plugs and wires. Performed static and running compressoin checks as well as cylinder leakdown with all values good. Removed valve cover and checked springs, rockers, and pushrods: GOOD. Checked fuel pressure and vacuum at WOT: GOOD. No fluctuation in vacuum gauge . Removed fuel rail to check for contaminants / debris : good. Checked injector pulse to injectors: GOOD. Took fuel sample and checked ethanol content: 10.4% - GOOD.
NOTE = 195 psi static compression
90-93 psi running compression
2-3% leakdown.
SVC manager spoke with GM(general manager) and we respectfully decline to continue any further diagnosis and/or repairs on this vehicle. Customer is not being charged for any services, vehicle put back to same condition as when it arrived.

I never told them about the trans/converter, they must have gathered that intel from this forum.

[Matts94Z28]

You know what. This all makes since now...

Rick, the GM is a POS. He is a worthless person who does not car about any individual other than himself. He has abused just about every employee verbally, including Chris, and has actually laid hands on two employees in the past 4 years he has been at Hendrick. How he is still the GM, I do not know.

I wouldn't be surprised if he forced Chris to get your TBSS out of the shop. I have seen some shady stuff go on at that dealership due to his management.


PRINT THAT OUT!

[2001hawk]

Sucks to hear that they aren't going to be fixing your truck. However like someone said if the scanner doesn't tell them what to replace then they are going to throw parts at it until they get lucky or tired of messing with it. For the most part the techs think if you brought it to them then they know more than you and you should shut up and let them spin some BS to sound like they can diagnose anything. Most techs at dealerships end up asking for more money per billable hour which then in turn they are given jobs that they can't possibly finish in the alloted time and by the time they get done they have actually made less money each day.

[MonteC]

they want no part of the truck anymore because they are worried about public humiliation when they cant figure out the problem......

like someone else said if the computer doesnt spit out a specific problem that localized to a very common problem then they are stumped.

the VERY second thing done should have been a compression and leakdown test, while its likely it'll come back in spec it would atleast rule out a few things.

they wouldnt be able to diagnose a valvespring issue unless its obviously broken, my opinion is its likely just weak.

a bent pushrod would cause less power from that cylinder which would show up as a misfire (cylinder contribution) but i've never seen an LS bend a pushrod even when being over revved.

a lifter is another possible cause but you really wont know much without pulling the head and swapping them since its a higher RPM issue they/it is probably going to appear fine to the eye just like the valve spring....


be glad they decided to send you packing, they never would have figured it out and you'd have a truck that was part swapped until they were fed up, because throwing parts at a problem is all they are capable of, even with all the technical support and equipment they are still incompetent....


I had two bent out of one engine. Bone stock.

[schardbody]

I had two bent out of one engine. Bone stock.

what caused them to bend? not trying to say it doesnt happen just saying i've never cured a driveability issue on an LS based engine by replacing bent push rods...

[MonteC]

what caused them to bend? not trying to say it doesnt happen just saying i've never cured a driveability issue on an LS based engine by replacing bent push rods...

I have no idea. I bought the motor with 89k miles on it out of a fbody parts dealer. Put it in my monte carlo and pulled the valve covers to change springs and found two bent pushrods. Was attached to a six speed if that makes any difference.

[98Camarod]

Probably an over rev missing a shift or a messed up down shift

[MonteC]

Probably an over rev missing a shift or a messed up down shift

Thats the conclusion we came to as well.