My experience with Amazon Tuning Solutions

[SWThomas]

Before I get started I just want to say that this is not a bash. I'm simply describing my experience. This may have been an isolated incident, it may be common practice. I'm not posting this to decide that, but rather to inform others. ATS has been informed of all of these things so this should be no surprise.

A lot of you know about my situation. A while ago I had an engine problem and I enlisted the help of Amazon Tuning Solutions to fix it. I was impressed at first with how I was treated. Rick agreed to tow my vehicle the rest of the way to his shop in Anderson if I could get it up to Carolina Dragway. That saved me a lot of money which I was happy about. That's really where my happiness ended.

I was initially told it would take about a month to finish. So I was patient and waited about a month before I started nagging about it. I was given several different deadlines on when the truck would be finished. Out of probably 6 deadlines I was given, the only one that was kept was the last one when I picked the truck up. My truck was at ATS for a total of 4 months. I must add that I did contact the owner of SVTP and Derek@Amazon to see if they could talk to Rick and find out what the hold-up was. I did not do this to start any problems but rather enlist the help of people who are more friendly with Rick than I am. Frankly, I wasn't satisfied with the explanations I was receiving from Rick. Apparently this was the wrong thing to do and I was told that getting other people involved wouldn't get the job done any faster, that it would actually have the opposite affect.:no:

All ATS was tasked with was removing and re-installing the engine. Durham Machine provided the rebuild work on the block and cylinder heads. Based on conversations with Rick and Durham Machine, it only took about a week and a half for the engine work to be finished and the engine returned to ATS. So out of 4 months, the engine was only out of ATS's hands for a week and a half.

Once I received the word that my truck was finished, I drove up to pick it up the next day. Rick advised that I make a few stops on the way home and check for any leaks. I did and on the first stop I noticed that my Cool-Aid intake scoop tubing had been re-installed incorrectly and that my power steering hose was riding on my lower pulley. I'm glad I caught it on the first stop as the pulley had already worn a groove into the hose. That could have potentially been disasterous.:no:

Shortly after I received the truck back I ordered the 3.4L Whipple kit. Upon receiving the kit, I went to a friends house to install it. During the install we found several discrepancies with some of the parts that were re-installed on the engine by ATS. First, I found that all the supercharger bolts on the drivers side were so loose I removed them with my fingers.:no: This was allowing the blower to shift and the belt was coming off the pulley by one rib (which was initially pointed out to me by ATS when I picked up the truck)... Second, we changed the plugs while the blower was off and noticed that all the plugs were gapped to 0.023. I was told that the plugs that were in the engine when they received it still looked good so they re-used them. I know for a fact that all of those plugs were gapped at 0.034 so the only conclusion I can come to is that all of them were intentionally re-gapped. I asked Rick about this and his explanation was that they normally gapped the plugs that tight to prevent spark blow-out. Needless to say, my throttle response increased quite a bit with the properly gapped plugs installed.... Third, we noticed that the fuel rail bracket on the passenger side was bent causing the fuel injectors to leak. The brackets were definitely not bent before the truck went to ATS.:no:

Like I stated earlier, ATS has been informed of all of these discrepancies. This thread is not intended to be inflammatory but rather give a detailed description of my experience. I purchased the SCT Pro Racer Package from ATS which allowed me to have access to the tunes Rick created for me. But apparently I'm not suppose to seek advice from anyone else other than Rick about tuning. So I have been informed that I'm no longer an ATS customer and have been forced to take my business elsewhere.

[Whaler]

Sorry Spencer.
Several people here did mention that their experience with ATS was not a good one. We all learn as we go, and have all made mistakes. Hopefully you have figured everything out before it was catastophic.

[chrisheltra]

Originally Posted by SWThomas

But apparently I'm not suppose to seek advice from anyone else other than Rick about tuning. So I have been informed that I'm no longer an ATS customer and have been forced to take my business elsewhere.

Wow, just wow.

[SWThomas]

Originally Posted by Whaler

Sorry Spencer.
Several people here did mention that their experience with ATS was not a good one. We all learn as we go, and have all made mistakes. Hopefully you have figured everything out before it was catastophic.

Yeah, I must apologize to you guys for not taking your advice. I've definitely learned my lesson.

[slow04]

A lot of people have learned their lesson dealing with Amazon..........I know I did. I see you didn't say anything about what they charged you,but my guess would be about three times what it should have been

[EZ03]

Originally Posted by SWThomas

Yeah, I must apologize to you guys for not taking your advice. I've definitely learned my lesson.

Hope it only takes one time to learn and not two or three times!!

[SWThomas]

Originally Posted by slow04

A lot of people have learned their lesson dealing with Amazon..........I know I did. I see you didn't say anything about what they charged you,but my guess would be about three times what it should have been

Yeah, I left a few things out. I'll probably still get threatened with a lawsuit.

[SWThomas]

Originally Posted by EZ03

Hope it only takes one time to learn and not two or three times!!

Nope, I'm done with them. I'm doing my own tuning now so I can get info from whoever will give it to me.

[chrisheltra]

I hope for your sake Spence that everything internally to the motor is up to par.

[SWThomas]

Originally Posted by chrisheltra

I hope for your sake Spence that everything internally to the motor is up to par.

I'm sure it is. ATS had nothing to do with the engine work. An actual machine shop did it.

[Whaler]

I see this same thread has already been removed from Lightningrodder.

[slow04]

Originally Posted by Whaler

I see this same thread has already been removed from Lightningrodder.

I see the post has been deleted. Spence did you get any reprimands from the other forums?

[chrisheltra]

Here was ricks response for those that dont visit the other sites.

Originally Posted by Rick@Amazon

I want to post our side of this and there will be no more response. You have moved on and so have we. If someone didn’t want to bash, discredit or try to harm someone’s business then why post at all. It may be a feeling of getting even or flexing their e-muscles in there mind. We figured as soon as this customer got what he wanted out of us that this would happen.

When we heard of the problem with his motor he asked us if we could help. We drove 6 hours round trip on 11/10/07 to pick up his truck and never asked for a penny for it. How many shops do that? At this event we told the customer in front of many people that we have about a 2 month backlog and there was no way we could do anything to his truck for at least 2 months. If this was not acceptable he should have taken the truck elsewhere and this would not be an issue. It was his choice. We had 4 other motor jobs ahead of his. We only have 2 lifts out of our 6 lifts that work with lightnings and other trucks where on them and they were ahead of his truck.

The customer called about every day for updates and I told him as soon as we started it I would tell him. He also contacted admins on sites and others to put pressure on me. He also bitched on others sites about us. I called the customer right away and talked to him about it and told him we were not rushing cars out so we could get to his truck but it didn’t stop. The bottom line is we pulled the motor just about 2 months after we picked it up like we said we would do. We stripped it down and took it to the machine shop in 2 days. Once we got the motor back in about 2 weeks we started to put it back together. There were several parts missing that had to be ordered including the flex plate. From start to finish it only took 6 weeks to finish the truck. For a motor job that is pretty fast. This was the customer’s only vehicle. I didn’t make one penny on the motor. Most shops make 10-15% or more on motors. I was trying to save the customer some money in doing this. The customer needed the truck buy 3/11/08 and it was finished on 3/10/08.

Since we got the truck running the day before we told the customer to make several stops to check the truck out because he had no time for use to break the motor in, heat cycle it and double check everything. We also told the customer that the blower pulley was to far forward. This is the way the truck came to us. We checked the pulley alignment with our laser to verify this. The supercharger is on dowels and there is no way it can shift forward to miss align the pulley that bad. All the blower bolts where torque to spec. If the blower bolts where that loose there would be such a bad vacuum leak the motors would not even idle. As far as the plugs goes, anybody that works on supercharged, turbo or nos knows you must gap the plugs down to prevent blowout. With 20lbs of boost and nos this had to be done. When we had the truck on the dyno it blew the spark out at .030. We had to gap them down to around .025. The customer re-routed his fuel lines as soon as he got back home. He posted this in a thread. When they did the blower swap they noticed the little bracket was bent on the rail and he said the injectors where leaking. The first thing we always check is power the pumps up and check for leaks. There is no way a vehicle would ever leave our shop with a leaking fuel system. The customer worked on the truck 3 times before these problems where noticed. If there were any problems with the truck that we did they could have been fixed for free. All he had to do was bring the truck back and it would have been taken care of. We could have done this on one of his several trips to Atlanta.

We did everything we could to help the customer with cost by towing the truck and giving him the motor at cost even though what happened to the motor had nothing to do with anything initially done at this shop. Again we informed the customer of our back log and gave him a choice. He made the choice. We do jobs in the order they come in and don’t give special treatment to people that feel they can get there way by applying pressure through the internet. This is what this customer did by posting and contacting others to pressure us. It is not my fault that this customer has a 700hp truck as a daily driver and it’s his only means of transportation.

I became aware the customer was working with another tuner. I informed the customer that this breaks our tuning policy. The customer broke the end user agree for receiving MTF files by sharing the files with others. Buy breaking the seal on the CD the customer agreed to the agreement. This is a separate agreement then the SCT one. This is posted on SVTP in our forum. Also in his sig he has that he tuned his truck and it ran 10.89. Well it was my tune in the truck when it ran 10.89.

Rick

[SWThomas]

Here's what I commented back with...

Originally Posted by Rick@Amazon

I want to post our side of this and there will be no more response. You have moved on and so have we. If someone didn’t want to bash, discredit or try to harm someone’s business then why post at all. It may be a feeling of getting even or flexing their e-muscles in there mind. We figured as soon as this customer got what he wanted out of us that this would happen.

No one is flexing e-muscle here. I'm just keeping my fellow enthusiast's informed about vendors in our community. And I wouldn't have had much of an issue with your shop if I hadn't found all the overlooked and neglected details when I inspected my engine.

When we heard of the problem with his motor he asked us if we could help. We drove 6 hours round trip on 11/10/07 to pick up his truck and never asked for a penny for it. How many shops do that? At this event we told the customer in front of many people that we have about a 2 month backlog and there was no way we could do anything to his truck for at least 2 months. If this was not expectable he should have taken the truck elsewhere and this would not be an issue. It was his choice. We had 4 other motor jobs ahead of his. We only have 2 lifts out of our 6 lifts that work with lightnings and other trucks where on them and they were ahead of his truck.

And I mentioned that in my OP. You were going to the track anyway, so it's not like you went out of your way to come get my truck. I already told you that I appreciated you towing my truck back to your shop. However, you did not tell me it was going to take 2 months to start on my truck. You told me that you had one Lightning ahead of mine and as soon as his engine was finished being installed, you were going to start on mine. Maybe you did accumulate another 3 engines after mine arrived at your shop, but mine should have been done before you devoted any attention to them. I mean seriously, I depend on my vehicle to get me to and from work. I told you that. Do you seriously think I would have willingly agreed to let you take my truck if I knew you weren't even going to start on it for two months?:nono:

The customer called about every day for updates and I told him as soon as we started it I would tell him. He also contacted admins on sites and others to put pressure on me. He also *****ed on others sites about us. I called the customer right away and talked to him about it and told him we were not rushing cars out so we could get to his truck but it didn’t stop. The bottom line is we pulled the motor just about 2 months after we picked it up like we said we would do. We stripped it down and took it to the machine shop in 2 days. Once we got the motor back in about 2 weeks we started to put it back together. There were several parts missing that had to be ordered including the flex plate. From start to finish it only took 6 weeks to finish the truck. For a motor job that is pretty fast. This was the customer’s only vehicle. I didn’t make one penny on the motor. Most shops make 10-15% or more on motors. I was trying to save the customer some money in doing this. The customer needed the truck buy 3/11/08 and it was finished on 3/10/08.

My first call about the engine was after it had been there for 3 weeks. I did not call you every day until the very end of this project because I was getting tired of the empty promises. The PM's I sent to Travis and Derek were sent a week before I picked up the truck. So I think I waited plenty long before getting anyone else involved. ldtu: And if you're not rushing cars out of your shop, how do you explain loose blower bolts?:headscratch: That's nice to know my flexplate was lost... I didn't know that. How do you lose a flexplate? You may have not made any money on the motor, but you didn't do any of the work on the motor. You removed it and installed it. And you were paid generously for that. 3/11/08 was like the the 6th deadline date that I gave you. I had to change more than one obligated appointment because of your missed deadlines. I was suppose to go on leave and visit my family for a once a year event and had to cancel because my truck wasn't finshed when you said it was going to be.

Since we got the truck running the day before we told the customer to make several stops to check the truck out because he had no time for use to break the motor in, heat cycle it and double check everything. We also told the customer that the blower pulley was to far forward. This is the way the truck came to us. We checked the pulley alignment with our laser to verify this. The supercharger is on dowels and there is no way it car shift forward to miss align the pulley that bad. All the blower bolts where torque to spec. If the blower bolts where that loose there would be such a bad vacuum leak the motors would not even idle. As far as the plugs goes, anybody that works on supercharged, turbo or nos knows you must gap the plugs down to prevent blowout. With 20lbs of boost and nos this had to be done. When we had the truck on the dyno it blew the spark out at .030. We had to gap them down to around .025. The customer re-routed his fuel lines as soon as he got back home. He posted this in a thread. When they did the blower swap they noticed the little bracket was bent on the rail and he said the injectors where leaking. The first thing we always check is power the pumps up and check for leaks. There is no way a vehicle would ever leave our shop with a leaking fuel system. The customer worked on the truck 3 times before these problems where noticed. If there were any problems with the truck that we did they could have been fixed for free. All he had to do was bring the truck back and it would have been taken care of. We could have done this on one of his several trips to Atlanta.

Okay now I understand about the blower. You obviosuly lacked attention to detail when removing it. I never, I repeat, never had the belt come off the pulley until you got done with it. And, there was only one locating dowel in the passenger side rear of the blower. It was there when I brought it to you and it was there when I picked it up. So, loose blower bolts would indeed allow the blower to shift forward and left. Coincidentally, enough to cause the belt to come off the pulley.:no: I have never heard of anyone gapping their plugs that tight. And why wasn't I informed of this "spark blow-out" issue that was supposedly experienced on the dyno. This is the first I am hearing of it. You're correct about the re-routing of the fuel lines. I did do that..... about 2 weeks ago. I didn't touch the fuel rail hoses until we swapped blowers. That's when I initially noticed the leaks and bent brackets. Come on Rick, you're just making stuff up now....:nono:

We did everything we could to help the customer with cost by towing the truck and giving him the motor at cost even though what happened to the motor had nothing to do with anything initially done at this shop. Again we informed the customer of our back log and gave him a choice. He made the choice. We do jobs in the order they come in and don’t give special treatment to people that feel they can get there way by applying pressure through the internet. This is what this customer did by posting and contacting others to pressure us. It is not my fault that this customer has a 700hp truck as a daily driver and it’s his only means of transportation.

So taking on that Canadian customer while my truck just sat there after it had already been there for months wasn't special treatment? And flying to other states to tune while you had commitments to keep with current customers wasn't special treatment? I'm a little confused.....:headscratch:

I became aware the customer was working with another tuner. I informed the customer that this breaks our tuning policy. The customer broke the end user agree for receiving MTF files by sharing the files with others. Buy breaking the seal on the CD the customer agreed to the agreement. This is a separate agreement then the SCT one. This is posted on SVTP in our forum. Also in his sig he has that he tuned his truck and it ran 10.89. Well it was my tune in the truck when it ran 10.89.

Rick

As for the last part, please offer forward some proof that I shared any of my mtf files with anyone else. Just because I'm getting advice from other tuners doesn't mean that I shared any files with them. I was sitting in front of my computer with a phone to my ear asking questions. If I'm not satisfied with the support I'm getting from you and paying my money for, I'm going to look elsewhere. Yes, I did run that 10.89 on your tune.... that I had to lean out 6% jto get it out of the 9.X:1 A/F range and adjust shift points on. You know the most common thing I heard from people when I posted that time??? "Why is a truck that made 701RWHP on the dyno only running a 10.8?" Since receiving the mtf files you sent me I now have an answer to that question.

[///Mcompact]

Originally Posted by RICK@AMAZON

I want to post our side of this and there will be no more response. If someone didnÔÇÖt want to bash, discredit or try to harm someoneÔÇÖs business then why post at all. It may be a feeling of getting even or flexing their e-muscles in there mind.

They sure don't like customer feedback...unless it is positive. That right there says enough. You should be able to stand by your work. This is what...customer number 4 or 5 in our little circle that has negative feedback? Thank god this isn't Ebay..

Uh-oh..am I gonna get sued, too?

[Whaler]

The boards won't let it go on for too long. You know the truth. I have 7 names (it's probably more) written down of people on this website alone that were customers, but won't ever be their customers again. There are more who have never and won't ever use them.

[///Mcompact]

We've had our share of tuners in the Evo world with the same results as the aforementioned. You know what happened to them? Out of business or have been relegated to just selling aftermarket parts/dyno'ing at best. A few of them moved on to other cars..but their reputation follows them eventually(certain BMW tuner).

That's the business world. You offer a crappy product/service....customers leave a lot of negative feedback (more than can be rebutted), and your will no longer have customers. It doesn't take but maybe 3 or 4 horror stories from one vendor on Evom to get their vendor privileges taken away- effectively removing them from that market. With 15 to 20 vendors already in place, there is no "specialty" that a certain shop provides that another vendor can't do. They won't be missed..

It's a shame that the Lightning owners don't stand-up & demand more democracy in their forums. Any customer..any, should have the right to offer uncensored feedback and let other's know about a shop's work...good or bad.

Looks like you guys have too much politics involved in the forums.

[slowgreen99]

Thats why I tune my own car! lmfao!

[Whaler]

[QUOTE=slow04;16811]I see the post has been deleted. Spence did you get any reprimands from the other forums?[/QUOTE]

+1??
I know it's getting heated.

[SWThomas]

Originally Posted by slow04

I see the post has been deleted. Spence did you get any reprimands from the other forums?

It hasn't been deleted yet. They moved it into a "Supporting Vendor Arbitration Forum". Apparently, this is where the vendor and customer can work things out. The Admin PMed me and said that once everything has been solved they would move the thread back to GP and lock it. They are more diligent than most on keeping the leg-humpers out.