Philadelphia Police violate rights of open carrier at gunpoint

namewastaken_0_0 · 05-18-2011, 07:04 PM

A story in today's Philadelphia Daily News shows why it's so important that citizens be allowed to videotape cops - it can be citizens' only way to fight back against police abuse of power.

This incident happened several weeks ago in Philadelphia to Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker who carries a gun on his hip at all times for self defense. He got the gun after several friends were mugged.

But he didn't count on attacks by police:

On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?"

Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him.

What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.

"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip.

"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."

Fiorino was right. It was perfectly legal to carry the gun. But that didn't matter to the cop:

Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees.

"Excuse me?" Fiorino said.

"Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said.

"Sir," Fiorino replied, "I'm more than happy to stand here -"

"If you make a move, I'm going to f------ shoot you," Dougherty snapped. "I'm telling you right now, you make a move, and you're going down!"

"Is this necessary?" Fiorino said.

It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty's calls for backup.

Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon.

"You f------ come here looking for f------ problems? Where do you live?" yelled one officer.

"I'm sorry, gentlemen," Fiorino said. "If I'm under arrest, I have nothing left to say."

"F------ a------, shut the f--- up!" the cop hollered.

The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives.

Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up.

When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go.

But only temporarily. Fiorino posted the audio recordings on youtube, and now they are harassing him again:

A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July.

If one listens to the audiotapes, it's hard to imagine how a reasonable person could charge Fiorino (and not the cops) for disorderly conduct.

gearmesh, inc. · 05-18-2011, 09:16 PM

While I commend this individual for standing up for his right to open carry, in my opinion I believe the sheeple that comprise the general public in liberal havens like Philly will never accept it as normal. I have far more productive things to tend to than to go out and aggravate a known jackboot police force like Philly is known for. On the other hand, since this guy has enough free time to exercise his lawful right to carry openly, I hope he sues the crap out of the city of Philadelphia. Where's the ACLU on the blatant rights infringement of this individual?

Even if open carry was allowed in SC, I would still carry concealed. Open carry, even though it is generally more comfortable, can make you first target in a robbery. You will probably get taken out first so they can eliminate you as any resistance to their plans AND get a free gun to boot.

I have an advantage when the bad guys don't suspect me of being armed. The element of surprise can really mess up a carefully orchestrated robbery or attack to the point of the attack being aborted.

csikx · 05-18-2011, 09:46 PM

patch

Police Officer Rolando Tirado
Buckeye Police Department, AZ
EOW: Sunday, May 1, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Daryl Hall
St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department, MO
EOW: Sunday, April 24, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Deputy Sheriff Clifton Taylor
Johnson County Sheriff's Office, TX
EOW: Saturday, April 23, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer J. Christopher Kilcullen
Eugene Police Department, OR
EOW: Friday, April 22, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Deputy Sheriff Sherri Jones
Bowie County Sheriff's Department, TX
EOW: Monday, April 18, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Public Safety Officer Eric Zapata
Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety, MI
EOW: Monday, April 18, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Patrolman Jonathan Schmidt
Trumann Police Department, AR
EOW: Tuesday, April 12, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Sergeant Eric Stein
Keokuk County Sheriff's Office, IA
EOW: Monday, April 4, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Sergeant James "Tim" Timothy Chapin
Chattanooga Police Department, TN
EOW: Saturday, April 2, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Senior Police Officer Elmer (Buddy) Christian
Athens-Clarke County Police Department, GA
EOW: Tuesday, March 22, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Craig Birkholz
Fond du Lac Police Department, WI
EOW: Sunday, March 20, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Andrew Dunn
Sandusky Police Department, OH
EOW: Saturday, March 19, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Deputy Sheriff Cameron Neil Justus
Buchanan County Sheriff's Office, VA
EOW: Sunday, March 13, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Deputy Sheriff William Ezra Stiltner
Buchanan County Sheriff's Office, VA
EOW: Sunday, March 13, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Geoffrey Breitkopf
Nassau County Police Department, NY
EOW: Saturday, March 12, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)

patch

Police Officer Jay Sheridan
Limon Police Department, CO
EOW: Wednesday, March 9, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Deputy Marshal John Perry
United States Department of Justice - United States Marshals Service, US
EOW: Tuesday, March 8, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer David S. Crawford
St. Petersburg Police Department, FL
EOW: Monday, February 21, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Detective John Falcone
Poughkeepsie City Police Department, NY
EOW: Friday, February 18, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Deputy Marshal Derek Hotsinpiller
United States Department of Justice - United States Marshals Service, US
EOW: Wednesday, February 16, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Special Agent Jaime J. Zapata
United States Department of Homeland Security - Immigration and Customs Enforcement - Homeland Security Investigations, US
EOW: Tuesday, February 15, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Correctional Officer Colonel Greg Malloy
Florida Department of Corrections, FL
EOW: Wednesday, February 2, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Officer David Spencer Moore
Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, IN
EOW: Wednesday, January 26, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Jeffrey Yaslowitz
St. Petersburg Police Department, FL
EOW: Monday, January 24, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Sergeant Tom Baitinger
St. Petersburg Police Department, FL
EOW: Monday, January 24, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Detective Roger Castillo
Miami-Dade Police Department, FL
EOW: Thursday, January 20, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Detective Amanda Haworth
Miami-Dade Police Department, FL
EOW: Thursday, January 20, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Tom Hayes
Columbus Division of Police, OH
EOW: Thursday, January 20, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Larry Nehasil
Livonia Police Department, MI
EOW: Monday, January 17, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer Christopher Matlosz
Lakewood Police Department, NJ
EOW: Friday, January 14, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Police Officer William H. Torbit, Jr.
Baltimore City Police Department, MD
EOW: Sunday, January 9, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental)

patch

Chief of Police Ralph Painter
Rainier Police Department, OR
EOW: Wednesday, January 5, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

patch

Deputy Sheriff Suzanne Hopper
Clark County Sheriff's Office, OH
EOW: Saturday, January 1, 2011
Cause of Death: Gunfire

namewastaken_0_0 · 05-18-2011, 09:48 PM

Any of those killed by gunfire of a CWP or Open carry permit?

csikx · 05-18-2011, 09:56 PM

Nope.

MonteC · 05-18-2011, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csikx

Nope.

Why did you post them?

csikx · 05-18-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonteC

Why did you post them?

Just because.

MonteC · 05-18-2011, 10:44 PM

ok.

gearmesh, inc. · 05-18-2011, 10:56 PM

I am willing to bet 100% that the thugs that took out those cops weren't openly carrying. Those cops had no idea the criminal had a gun until it was pointed at them. The only time a criminal is going to display his piece in the presence of the po-po is to actively use it against them.

A citizen that chooses to open carry would most likely be doing it in a proper holster. Do you know of any criminals that are safety conscious enough in their trade to actually get a proper holster for their gun? A holster would be the last thing a thug is going to use. If they have to dump the gun quickly, they would still be left with a holster to get off their belt, which would be a red flag indicator to the po-po that they were carrying a weapon. Can you say "Plaxico Burress" style carry? That is what can happen when the trigger guard isn't enclosed in a proper holster. Irresponsible all the way with that one.

To me, an openly carried handgun in a proper holster just identifies the carrier as a responsible gun owner taking responsibility for his own safety, not a menace to society like the Philly cops view them. Philly cops need to worry about the guns that they DON'T know about instead of the ones they CAN plainly see properly holstered.

Gun in holster = Responsible gun owner
Gun stuck in waisband = Criminal thug.

MonteC · 05-18-2011, 10:58 PM

My waistband isnt a proper holster?!

gearmesh, inc. · 05-18-2011, 11:17 PM

Typically, an appendix position carry in the waistband that happens to accidentally discharge has a high probability of taking out the one of femoral arteries. 911 isn't likely going to help you in time with that one. You would be better off shooting your pecker off. At least that can be put back on, minus the damaged length of about an inch!

For safety's sake, use a holster that covers the trigger guard.

MonteC · 05-19-2011, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearmesh, inc.

Typically, an appendix position carry in the waistband that happens to accidentally discharge has a high probability of taking out the one of femoral arteries. 911 isn't likely going to help you in time with that one. You would be better off shooting your pecker off. At least that can be put back on, minus the damaged length of about an inch!

For safety's sake, use a holster that covers the trigger guard.

yeah i better get a holster, I cant afford to loose and inch of pecker.

Illusions · 05-19-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gearmesh, inc.

Typically, an appendix position carry in the waistband that happens to accidentally discharge has a high probability of taking out the one of femoral arteries. 911 isn't likely going to help you in time with that one. You would be better off shooting your pecker off. At least that can be put back on, minus the damaged length of about an inch!

For safety's sake, use a holster that covers the trigger guard.

I knew a cop that did that TWICE. lost one testicle the first time and lost the other the next. Worst part is he was the firearms safety instructor for the police dept. Notice I said WAS.

05-18-2011, 07:04 PM	#1
namewastaken_0_0 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Summerville Posts: 799	Philadelphia Police violate rights of open carrier at gunpoint A story in today's Philadelphia Daily News shows why it's so important that citizens be allowed to videotape cops - it can be citizens' only way to fight back against police abuse of power. This incident happened several weeks ago in Philadelphia to Mark Fiorino, a 25-year-old IT worker who carries a gun on his hip at all times for self defense. He got the gun after several friends were mugged. But he didn't count on attacks by police: On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?" Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him. What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law. "Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip. "Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive." Fiorino was right. It was perfectly legal to carry the gun. But that didn't matter to the cop: Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees. "Excuse me?" Fiorino said. "Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said. "Sir," Fiorino replied, "I'm more than happy to stand here -" "If you make a move, I'm going to f------ shoot you," Dougherty snapped. "I'm telling you right now, you make a move, and you're going down!" "Is this necessary?" Fiorino said. It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty's calls for backup. Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon. "You f------ come here looking for f------ problems? Where do you live?" yelled one officer. "I'm sorry, gentlemen," Fiorino said. "If I'm under arrest, I have nothing left to say." "F------ a------, shut the f--- up!" the cop hollered. The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives. Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up. When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go. But only temporarily. Fiorino posted the audio recordings on youtube, and now they are harassing him again: A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July. If one listens to the audiotapes, it's hard to imagine how a reasonable person could charge Fiorino (and not the cops) for disorderly conduct.

05-18-2011, 09:16 PM	#2
gearmesh, inc. creepy azz cracka Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Summerville Posts: 1,587	While I commend this individual for standing up for his right to open carry, in my opinion I believe the sheeple that comprise the general public in liberal havens like Philly will never accept it as normal. I have far more productive things to tend to than to go out and aggravate a known jackboot police force like Philly is known for. On the other hand, since this guy has enough free time to exercise his lawful right to carry openly, I hope he sues the crap out of the city of Philadelphia. Where's the ACLU on the blatant rights infringement of this individual? Even if open carry was allowed in SC, I would still carry concealed. Open carry, even though it is generally more comfortable, can make you first target in a robbery. You will probably get taken out first so they can eliminate you as any resistance to their plans AND get a free gun to boot. I have an advantage when the bad guys don't suspect me of being armed. The element of surprise can really mess up a carefully orchestrated robbery or attack to the point of the attack being aborted. __________________ "I came into this world kicking, screaming,and covered in someone else's blood, I have no problem leaving the same way!" ÔÇ£If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. ThatÔÇÖs ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?ÔÇØ -Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch. Last edited by gearmesh, inc.; 05-18-2011 at 09:24 PM.

05-18-2011, 10:44 PM	#8
MonteC Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Summerville Posts: 4,431	ok. __________________ Griffin Transmission -Home of the most badassest Monte Carlo- Cell: 843-276-0554 Shop: 843-793-4607 04 RSX 06 Ridgeline 86 Monte Carlo

05-18-2011, 10:56 PM	#9
gearmesh, inc. creepy azz cracka Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Summerville Posts: 1,587	I am willing to bet 100% that the thugs that took out those cops weren't openly carrying. Those cops had no idea the criminal had a gun until it was pointed at them. The only time a criminal is going to display his piece in the presence of the po-po is to actively use it against them. A citizen that chooses to open carry would most likely be doing it in a proper holster. Do you know of any criminals that are safety conscious enough in their trade to actually get a proper holster for their gun? A holster would be the last thing a thug is going to use. If they have to dump the gun quickly, they would still be left with a holster to get off their belt, which would be a red flag indicator to the po-po that they were carrying a weapon. Can you say "Plaxico Burress" style carry? That is what can happen when the trigger guard isn't enclosed in a proper holster. Irresponsible all the way with that one. To me, an openly carried handgun in a proper holster just identifies the carrier as a responsible gun owner taking responsibility for his own safety, not a menace to society like the Philly cops view them. Philly cops need to worry about the guns that they DON'T know about instead of the ones they CAN plainly see properly holstered. Gun in holster = Responsible gun owner Gun stuck in waisband = Criminal thug. __________________ "I came into this world kicking, screaming,and covered in someone else's blood, I have no problem leaving the same way!" ÔÇ£If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. ThatÔÇÖs ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?ÔÇØ -Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch. Last edited by gearmesh, inc.; 05-18-2011 at 11:08 PM.

05-18-2011, 10:58 PM	#10
MonteC Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Summerville Posts: 4,431	My waistband isnt a proper holster?! __________________ Griffin Transmission -Home of the most badassest Monte Carlo- Cell: 843-276-0554 Shop: 843-793-4607 04 RSX 06 Ridgeline 86 Monte Carlo

05-18-2011, 09:46 PM	#3
csikx Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,398	patch Police Officer Rolando Tirado Buckeye Police Department, AZ EOW: Sunday, May 1, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Daryl Hall St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department, MO EOW: Sunday, April 24, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Deputy Sheriff Clifton Taylor Johnson County Sheriff's Office, TX EOW: Saturday, April 23, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer J. Christopher Kilcullen Eugene Police Department, OR EOW: Friday, April 22, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Deputy Sheriff Sherri Jones Bowie County Sheriff's Department, TX EOW: Monday, April 18, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Public Safety Officer Eric Zapata Kalamazoo Department of Public Safety, MI EOW: Monday, April 18, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Patrolman Jonathan Schmidt Trumann Police Department, AR EOW: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Sergeant Eric Stein Keokuk County Sheriff's Office, IA EOW: Monday, April 4, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Sergeant James "Tim" Timothy Chapin Chattanooga Police Department, TN EOW: Saturday, April 2, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Senior Police Officer Elmer (Buddy) Christian Athens-Clarke County Police Department, GA EOW: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Craig Birkholz Fond du Lac Police Department, WI EOW: Sunday, March 20, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Andrew Dunn Sandusky Police Department, OH EOW: Saturday, March 19, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Deputy Sheriff Cameron Neil Justus Buchanan County Sheriff's Office, VA EOW: Sunday, March 13, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Deputy Sheriff William Ezra Stiltner Buchanan County Sheriff's Office, VA EOW: Sunday, March 13, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Geoffrey Breitkopf Nassau County Police Department, NY EOW: Saturday, March 12, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental) patch Police Officer Jay Sheridan Limon Police Department, CO EOW: Wednesday, March 9, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Deputy Marshal John Perry United States Department of Justice - United States Marshals Service, US EOW: Tuesday, March 8, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer David S. Crawford St. Petersburg Police Department, FL EOW: Monday, February 21, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Detective John Falcone Poughkeepsie City Police Department, NY EOW: Friday, February 18, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Deputy Marshal Derek Hotsinpiller United States Department of Justice - United States Marshals Service, US EOW: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Special Agent Jaime J. Zapata United States Department of Homeland Security - Immigration and Customs Enforcement - Homeland Security Investigations, US EOW: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Correctional Officer Colonel Greg Malloy Florida Department of Corrections, FL EOW: Wednesday, February 2, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Officer David Spencer Moore Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department, IN EOW: Wednesday, January 26, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Jeffrey Yaslowitz St. Petersburg Police Department, FL EOW: Monday, January 24, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Sergeant Tom Baitinger St. Petersburg Police Department, FL EOW: Monday, January 24, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Detective Roger Castillo Miami-Dade Police Department, FL EOW: Thursday, January 20, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Detective Amanda Haworth Miami-Dade Police Department, FL EOW: Thursday, January 20, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Tom Hayes Columbus Division of Police, OH EOW: Thursday, January 20, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Larry Nehasil Livonia Police Department, MI EOW: Monday, January 17, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer Christopher Matlosz Lakewood Police Department, NJ EOW: Friday, January 14, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Police Officer William H. Torbit, Jr. Baltimore City Police Department, MD EOW: Sunday, January 9, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire (Accidental) patch Chief of Police Ralph Painter Rainier Police Department, OR EOW: Wednesday, January 5, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire patch Deputy Sheriff Suzanne Hopper Clark County Sheriff's Office, OH EOW: Saturday, January 1, 2011 Cause of Death: Gunfire

05-18-2011, 09:48 PM	#4
namewastaken_0_0 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Summerville Posts: 799	Any of those killed by gunfire of a CWP or Open carry permit?

05-18-2011, 09:56 PM	#5
csikx Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 1,398	Nope.

05-18-2011, 11:17 PM	#11
gearmesh, inc. creepy azz cracka Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Summerville Posts: 1,587	Typically, an appendix position carry in the waistband that happens to accidentally discharge has a high probability of taking out the one of femoral arteries. 911 isn't likely going to help you in time with that one. You would be better off shooting your pecker off. At least that can be put back on, minus the damaged length of about an inch! For safety's sake, use a holster that covers the trigger guard. __________________ "I came into this world kicking, screaming,and covered in someone else's blood, I have no problem leaving the same way!" ÔÇ£If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. ThatÔÇÖs ridiculous. If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid about?ÔÇØ -Clint Smith, Thunder Ranch.